Viper vs Hornet Radar

[falcon_120]

- because you don't agree with it.

 

Remember all I'm saying is that people need to know what it is they're actually picking up on their radar screen in DCS before making judgement on wether or not the radar is really overperforming or not. That is; is it a [insert airplane name] loaded to the brim with missiles & fuel bags, or is it a virtually clean one? (This is ofccourse assuming loading external stores increases the RCS in DCS, which I honestly don't know if it does)

 

I said this as it felt like someone was trying to argue that a Hornet would pick up a Viper before the Viper could pick up a Hornet, which I don't really see any evidence to suggest should be the case. Thus if you're campaigning so aggressively for the Vipers radar to be decreased in effectiveness, then why are we not seeing you do the same for the Hornet which radar is even better ingame?

 

Remember like TheFighterPilot says, the pilots who've flown both usually observe the Viper & Hornet (Legacy ofc) radars perform about the same in actual practice, i.e. the difference in being able to pick up similar targets isn't that big.

As mentioned before the topic is broader and maybe you are missing the point on purpose.

 

Should the hornet radar performance be decreased? Most probably.

 

Is the viper radar overperforming?, i'm seeing this to be also the case.

 

Along with all this, some people here are saying they cannot detect things until 30 nm, i can tell you after many hours flying both hornet and viper in dcs that they are encountering a bug or not managing the radar properly. In my case, in any MP server i jump in, i'm able to see contacts at more than 80 nm even 120nm, around 60/65nm for fighters, i think we can agree this needs to be looked at and tune with SME advice ofc.

 

Hornet and vipers are now behaving like eagles and tomcats, there is really little tactical value to fly an f15c now for bvr given the situation. Maybe when ED launches the F15C it will see fighters at 150 nm XD who knows.

 

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[dundun92]

Along with all this, some people here are saying they cannot detect things until 30 nm, i can tell you after many hours flying both hornet and viper in dcs that they are encountering a bug or not managing the radar properly. In my case, in any MP server i jump in, i'm able to see contacts at more than 80 nm even 120nm, around 60/65nm for fighters, i think we can agree this needs to be looked at and tune with SME advice ofc.

Exactly. I can see fighter targets at 70+nm in the Viper in lookup, and about 50+nm lookdown consistently. This is simply unreasonable. Tankers/AWACS are literally being seen as soon as they are hot and in the 160nm range scale.

 

 

 

 

Hornet and vipers are now behaving like eagles and tomcats, there is really little tactical value to fly an f15c now for bvr given the situation. Maybe when ED launches the F15C it will see fighters at 150 nm XD who knows.

The chart I posted in the first page is for the original APG-63, and It shows a T-33 being detected at 95nm Hot in lookdown. When we get a properly modeled F-15 radar it will indeed be a very good radar. GG did report this to ED in regards to our FC3 F-15 and they did say that they were investigating. You are right, there is literally no reason to use the F-15 BVR rn, and the radar is a big part of it. The Viper is more effective than our F-15C (yes ik FC3 bla bla bla but I at least expect the radar to be decently modeled. Not to mention missing ACM modes etc but thats a whole other topic)

[Hummingbird]

Actually, I did bring this up in the ED discord a while ago, as the Hornet radar is overperforming as well. I simply didnt have much in the way or sources at the time. But youre right, the hornet radar is definitely overperforming, it is beating the RL F-15 radar in detection range. I just really havent focused on the Hornet as I really dont fly it much for A2A.

 

I just hope it's not because you're mostly flying the F15 on the GS server and thus face the Viper more often than the Hornet, and hence it annoys you more that the Viper is overperformlng than the fact that F-18 is as well?

 

Because if so then that's not really being interested in realism as much as it is wishing for a noticable advantage vs the most often faced opposition.

 

But I assume that's not your wish, and thus it's important to stress that any adjustment to the Vipers radar also requires similar steps taken to the radar on the Hornet (or any other aircrafts radar that is over/under-performing), and at the same time so as not to make one unrealistically inferior relative the other.

[Exorcet]

Realism is fine, but not when it gets in the way of fun, and fun is what games are supposed to be, whether its a simulator or a an FPS. IMHO this needs to be fixed. Charts or no charts and real or not. That's just my opinion.

Realism is part of the fun. Aircraft limitations are part of their character and learning how to work with them is an important part of the sim.

 

 

That said, the F-16 radar doesn't seem weak at all to me. I use TWS all the time, even within 10 miles. In BVR, the F-16 can see past the max effective range of the AIM-120. It's a good radar. I really wish the F-15 radar was as good as the 16's in DCS.

 

 

The only thing I would guess as an issue is that online desync might make TWS less reliable. I only fly offline.

[Harlikwin]

Realism is part of the fun. Aircraft limitations are part of their character and learning how to work with them is an important part of the sim.

 

 

That said, the F-16 radar doesn't seem weak at all to me. I use TWS all the time, even within 10 miles. In BVR, the F-16 can see past the max effective range of the AIM-120. It's a good radar. I really wish the F-15 radar was as good as the 16's in DCS.

 

 

The only thing I would guess as an issue is that online desync might make TWS less reliable. I only fly offline.

 

Overall the Viper radar is way too good esp relative to the F18. And just wait till the F18 actually gets the AZ/EL page implemented.

 

Detection ranges for the Viper should be lower (because physics), and Track While Lie should be significantly worse than it currently is especially with regard to altitude information and missile guidance (because lots of reasons). RL viper pilots pretty much never use Track While Lie.

 

Overall missile guidance/updates for fox3's really needs to get looked at because frankly its too good, and TWS in general is second choice in terms of providing good positional info on targets versus other modes.

[Exorcet]

I'd be OK with a reduction in F-16 radar performance. I'm expecting it at this point, but I was also pointing out that currently I don't see many shortcomings with the radar as it is [over]modeled now.

[dundun92]

I just hope it's not because you're mostly flying the F15 on the GS server and thus face the Viper more often than the Hornet, and hence it annoys you more that the Viper is overperformlng than the fact that F-18 is as well?

 

Because if so then that's not really being interested in realism as much as it is wishing for a noticable advantage vs the most often faced opposition.

 

But I assume that's not your wish, and thus it's important to stress that any adjustment to the Vipers radar also requires similar steps taken to the radar on the Hornet (or any other aircrafts radar that is over/under-performing), and at the same time so as not to make one unrealistically inferior relative the other.

If you have actually payed attention to what I fly as of late, firstly I mainly fly on the 104th anyway, and secondly, even when I am on GS, I almost never fly the F-15, for obvious reasons (no its not the overperforming Viper radar :D). Its almost always the F-16, and occasionally the Hornet when the sides are really imbalanced, or for A2G. So no, that has nothing to do with it. And yes, I agree, steps do need to be taken on all the planes, F-16/18 inculded. I just have been focused on the plane I fly the most RN.

[Hummingbird]

Overall the Viper radar is way too good esp relative to the F18.

 

But like the real pilots say, there isn't much to choose between the two, so why should we expect there to be in DCS?

 

Plus the Hornet's radar is already better than the F-16's in DCS.

 

So far the only valid point seems to be that both radars are overperforming, not that the F-16's is too good relative to the F-18s.

 

In short you can't just adjust one radar to be 100% realistic and then ignore the rest, doing so and even more unrealistic relative performance might result.

[Hummingbird]

If you have actually payed attention to what I fly as of late, firstly I mainly fly on the 104th anyway, and secondly, even when I am on GS, I almost never fly the F-15, for obvious reasons (no its not the overperforming Viper radar :D). Its almost always the F-16, and occasionally the Hornet when the sides are really imbalanced, or for A2G. So no, that has nothing to do with it. And yes, I agree, steps do need to be taken on all the planes, F-16/18 inculded. I just have been focused on the plane I fly the most RN.

 

Fair enough. I just hope that if they decide to adjust things, then they atleast make sure to do it for all the aircraft at the same time.

[falcon_120]

But like the real pilots say, there isn't much to choose between the two, so why should we expect there to be in DCS?

 

 

 

Plus the Hornet's radar is already better than the F-16's in DCS.

 

 

 

So far the only valid point seems to be that both radars are overperforming, not that the F-16's is too good relative to the F-18s.

 

 

 

In short you can't just adjust one radar to be 100% realistic and then ignore the rest, doing so and even more unrealistic relative performance might result.

How did you get to the conclussion of both radar being equal?

 

Its not what the fighter pilot said, and is not what available documentation or radar basics suggest (antena size).

 

Even cw lemoine, who has flown both said something along the lines of : "the navy did what the usaf should have made...and upgraded the apg73 continously throughout the years).

 

So, basically, yes, both radars are overperforming, but when tuned, by no means the f16 should have the same max detection range over the same RCS, thats a fact.

 

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Edited July 15, 2020 by falcon_120

[Hummingbird]

How did you get to the conclussion of both radar being equal?

 

Its not what the fighter pilot said, and is not what available documentation or radar basics suggest (antena size).

 

Even cw lemoine, who has flown both said something along the lines of : "the navy did what the usaf should have made...and upgraded the apg73 continously throughout the years).

 

So, basically, yes, both radars are overperforming, but when tuned, by no means the f16 should have the same max detection range over the same RCS, thats a fact.

 

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Falcon are you sure Lemoine wasn't talking about the SuperBug ?

 

That said I'm not disputing that the APG-73 has a longer detection range than the APG-68, I'm just not sure it's by very much, esp. when we're talking the APG-68(V)9. This is based on what the pilots say, and claimed enhancement in detection range the APG-68 was supposed to give over the APG-66.

[Eldur]

My biggest gripe is that you can't point this thing at horizontal level. It's either up or down with the slider and around the center, there's something that feels like a hardcoded deadzone which sucks.

[falcon_120]

Falcon are you sure Lemoine wasn't talking about the SuperBug ?

 

 

 

That said I'm not disputing that the APG-73 has a longer detection range than the APG-68, I'm just not sure it's by very much, esp. when we're talking the APG-68(V)9. This is based on what the pilots say, and claimed enhancement in detection range the APG-68 was supposed to give over the APG-66.

He never flew the superbug, the article i'm referring to is still online, i will put the link here so you can check it.

 

EDIT: Here is the link, it talks about the EF first but after that he talks about the APG73.

https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/hornet-vs-viper-part-four/

 

Regarding the second point, the difference between them is not huge, but given the type of distance at which they should be at, it is important tactically, let me contextualize what i mean:

 

If one radar had a detection range of 90nm and the other a detection range of 80nm (against a 4m`2 target for example), that would not matter too much, since both are well outside amraams maximum range, and still with a good tactical margin to decide your engagement (commit or abort).

 

However, what we are talking here should be closer to the hornet being able to detect a fighter size target at 45nm/50ish, less in lookdown situation, and the viper maybe 35-40ish even less in lookdown scenarios against ground clutter. Now, this, it has tactical implications, very important ones, first, it denies f16s flying like a f22/eurofighter/f15c at angels 40 and M1.6 and getting amraam kills at 65/70 nm thanks to absurd detection ranges (in fact there is like 2 or 3 GS videos on youtube showing this cappability), secondly it gives you much less time to react to bandits which are not on your datalink. And basically, it makes things more realistic and true to how these aircraft operates.

 

Take into account that i love both the hornet and the viper and i'm actually enjoying their superpower online getting 50nm kills from high altitude XD, but i'm aware that this is very very questionable, more so when their radar will be jammed which is another things that makes their life easier right now. In any case, all is WIP, so we just need to relax and let ED finish their work.

 

 

 

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Edited July 16, 2020 by falcon_120

[Kev2go]

this was from an APG 68 V9 Brochure.

 

 

 

 

 

EDit: Found this in a link, which can help give some perspective

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.matec-conferences.org/articles/matecconf/pdf/2019/53/matecconf_easn2019_04001.pdf

 

Remember though we have the APG68 V5 in DCS Viper.

 

A summary beams scanner pointed out in another thread. SO all in all we would need to have had the APG 68 V9 to have performance close enough to the APG73 that it be pointless to nitpick which one is better or worse

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3801793&postcount=35

Edited July 16, 2020 by Kev2go

[TheFighterPilot]

Again, grain of salt and oversimplifying this, but you are going to see the same fighter sized target at roughly the same range in both the viper (V5) and the legacy Hornet. Roughly the same distance. Sure...we could get picky with this but you're talking within group criteria distances for sure.

[Kev2go]

Whilst the biggest focus of discussion has been in A2A, il throw in that in A/G the Hornet radar will also be superior to the APG68 v5.

 

Most notable difference will be the EXP 3- Medium SAR mode allowing a 1.2x1.2 NM area zoom

 

Although in both EXP 1 and EXP 2 the hornet has some incremental advantages in DBS resolution as well.

 

In the viper the EXP 1 will provide 8:1 resolution, in EXP 2 64:1

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4371433&postcount=17

Edited July 16, 2020 by Kev2go

[dores893]

I really didn't expect this thread to go seven pages!

 

It seems like we can draw a few conclusions: (1) the Charlie radar "might" be overperforming, and (2) the Viper radar is underperforming compared to the Charlie.

 

That makes sense. The Viper was designed as a day fighter and didn't have BVR capability until the C model. In contrast, the YF-17 was completely redesigned for the Navy and came out of the hanger shooting sparrows.

 

The Viper is also probably about 40% complete. The Hornet has a big head start. I'll make another comparison after the products get closer to Alpha, but it does beg the question of an underperforming radar vs a programming issue that just hasn't been resolved yet?

 

I agree that in ACM, the Viper is slower than I would like to grab a lock. Neither come close to the Eagle in detection range, but datalink levels the playing field tremendously. The Tomcat flies in a different category.

 

I want to like the Viper. It's a fighter pilot's fighter plane. It irritates me that the Hornet is doing the same thing better than the rate machine.

[dundun92]

Neither come close to the Eagle in detection range.

Not for the DCS "Eagle" :D. It can hardly see fighters past 50nm lol

[Kev2go]

I really didn't expect this thread to go seven pages!

 

It seems like we can draw a few conclusions: (1) the Charlie radar "might" be overperforming, and (2) the Viper radar is underperforming compared to the Charlie.

 

That makes sense. The Viper was designed as a day fighter and didn't have BVR capability until the C model. In contrast, the YF-17 was completely redesigned for the Navy and came out of the hanger shooting sparrows.

 

The Viper is also probably about 40% complete. The Hornet has a big head start. I'll make another comparison after the products get closer to Alpha, but it does beg the question of an underperforming radar vs a programming issue that just hasn't been resolved yet?

 

I agree that in ACM, the Viper is slower than I would like to grab a lock. Neither come close to the Eagle in detection range, but datalink levels the playing field tremendously. The Tomcat flies in a different category.

 

I want to like the Viper. It's a fighter pilot's fighter plane. It irritates me that the Hornet is doing the same thing better than the rate machine.

 

 

both are "over performing" right now in terms of ranges. Both need to have lower max detection ranges, since they are not F15's. However whether in its current OP state or when it gets fixed, the Hornet will remain as the aircraft with the better radar relative to the Viper, because as discussed it is supposed to be that way. The only aspect of the the Viper that i can think of that is very7 likely under performing right now is its automatic target acquisition in close combat/ dogfight modes relative to the Hornet.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Kev2go

[Hummingbird]

both are "over performing" right now in terms of ranges. Both need to have lower max detection ranges, since they are not F15's. However whether in its current OP state or when it gets fixed, the Hornet will remain as the aircraft with the better radar relative to the Viper, because as discussed it is supposed to be that way. The only aspect of the the Viper that i can think of that is very7 likely under performing right now is its automatic target acquisition in close combat/ dogfight modes relative to the Hornet.

 

Thing is the actual difference is evidently very small between the APG-73 & APG-68(V)5, so small that the actual pilots flying the things aren't really noticing a difference vs the same target. Why that is? I don't know, maybe the APG-68 is utilizing superior hardware or software to compensate for the smaller disc?

[Airhunter]

Thing is the actual difference is evidently very small between the APG-73 & APG-68(V)5, so small that the actual pilots flying the things aren't really noticing a difference vs the same target. Why that is? I don't know, maybe the APG-68 is utilizing superior hardware or software to compensate for the smaller disc?

 

Can you please quote said "actual pilots"? Because I am not aware of anyone commonly flying a 16C and F/A-18C at the same time. If anything they are probably refering to the 18A.

[TheFighterPilot]

Can you please quote said "actual pilots"? Because I am not aware of anyone commonly flying a 16C and F/A-18C at the same time. If anything they are probably refering to the 18A.

 

Quote: "The Viper V5 radar is picking up the same fighter sized targets and generating good tracks at roughly the same range (within group criteria) as the Legacy F-18C/D model hornets with whatever OFP was current as of 2019 for both models. If anything we tend to agree in the debrief that our (viper) scope presentation is much easier to work and in a sense gives us a slight edge in picking out the right contact sooner.".

 

Source: I fly the Viper. We debrief combined fights with Hornets all the time. Everyone walks out of the briefing room with that same understanding.

 

I'll let any other real world drivers chime in if they've seen something different (within reason of course), I'm not the mayor here just the town drunk but still apart of the town.

[GGTharos]

Thanks for the information - and it makes sense as well, though it leaves us guessing WRT some parameters that I don't think you could answer for us :)

[Hummingbird]

Thanks for the information - and it makes sense as well, though it leaves us guessing WRT some parameters that I don't think you could answer for us :)

 

Well if it picks up same targets at basically the same range, then I don't really see what parameters you're missing?

[Kev2go]

Well if it picks up same targets at basically the same range, then I don't really see what parameters you're missing?

 

whats basically same range? V5 sees target 35-40NM and a Hornet sees one at 45-50NM? or would you imply even less?

Edited July 20, 2020 by Kev2go