Two Seat fighters or other multiplace A/C - how should they work?

[Notso]

I've been pondering this question for a while, especially with news of Razbam's F-15E Strike Eagle on the horizon, as well as talk of other two-seat fighters such as the F-4 or F-18D and such being much desired. It seams to me the 2nd cockpit is what makes these offerings unique and special and brings additional capability over their single seat counter parts.

 

However, in a simulated environment where having a real person play the role of the WSO might be cumbersome at times with real life scheduling and time commitments and such - how does the DCS community see that additional role be best implemented? I've never flown the F-14 in DCS, but several people have told me that "Jester" in that game is not much more than a glorified voice activated task list. If I'm wrong about that I apologize in advance. I'm not meaning to throw any spears at that module. But the question is how best to implement the "backseater" into the game if a real person is not available to run the systems? Given the current state of AI in game is shall we say lacking, I would think that some good thought would need to be put into how to do this and make it effective. Or should these modules require a real person only and not use AI at all? Thoughts?

[slikbaz]

IMO Jester is not too bad. There are people that are successful using him even on PVP servers. There are some annoyances, for example when using TWS there's no way to force him to IFF a target or to tell him to change the Phoenix launch order, but hopefully heatblur will continue to improve him. Certainly it does not compare to a real RIO, but I think it would be a bad business decision to make the aircraft completely un-flyable without another person.

[uri_ba]

for the F-18D and F-15E, you can operate everything from the front cockpit. so IRL, WSO is there to share the workload on complex missions where the PLT can focus on flying the jet.

so the "jester-like" functionality will probably won't be required in DCS.

 

the F-4 is a different beast. Like the F-14, the radar is operated by the RIO only. which will require some functionality, and the human RIO will have a workload like it has in the F-14.

(in addition to some extra AG stuff like MITL weapons which are not available on the cat).

 

similar WSO/RIO/BN interesting workloads can be expected on platforms like the A-6, Tornado and attack helicopters (Hind, Apache and even the OH-58D if they have bothered giving us shared cockpit)

[QuiGon]

I think Heatblur choose the very best possible way to deal with this, but I have some doubts that other 3rd parties or maybe even ED have the will and/or ressources to put that much effort into it.

 

Belsimtek has outlined here, how the copilot AI for the Hind should look like in the end: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3341529&postcount=1

[Willie Nelson]

I have heard one of the guys from Polychop, while discussing the upcoming Kiowa, indicate that the current API is not well suited to shared cockpit for some reasons that were certainly beyond my level of understanding. Perhaps that’s something that will change in the future but it had ruled a shared cockpit for the Kiowa out at this stage.

 

I’m sure others could elaborate on that.

[Sceptre]

for things like the F-15E which can be 100% operated with one pilot it might be different. but in things where some functions are unavailable in both seats some kind of AI is required or the module is not playable in singleplayer. the upcoming hind implementation will be interesting. I believe the atgms can only be guided from the front seat

[Notso]

for the F-18D and F-15E, you can operate everything from the front cockpit. so IRL, WSO is there to share the workload on complex missions where the PLT can focus on flying the jet.

so the "jester-like" functionality will probably won't be required in DCS.

 

 

I'm not completely sure what you're suggesting then. While it's true that everything can be run from the front seat in the F-15E, that's not the way it's done IRL in that jet. That's what makes the F-15E able to do things better than it's SS counter-parts. So are you saying that the "Jester" like controls to have the backseat do stuff is not needed on the Strike Eagle module?

 

I guess what I'm asking is: Would you folks that buy it want it to be just essentially a Single seat jet if you are playing SP or even MP and didn't have a live person to run the backseat? Or would you want some sort of AI that fills the role of the WSO when a live one isn't available to fly with you that day? And if the answer is yes to the AI, what would you want it to do?

 

Personally, if were unable to have a real dude playing WSO, I would want some sort of AI to do some of the basic roles such as:

 

- Automatically change the radios to the next Freq

- get the TGP onto the target coordinates from the JTAC

- Take SAR maps of PP targets

- Load coords into PP and TOO JDAM/JSOW

- guide LGBs onto TGT and lase at the appropriate times

- Guide GBU-15s and AGM-130 TV weapons to the target

- Track moving vehicles

- Keep sight of a bandit(s) in a BFM or ACM fight

- Dispense chaff/flare at appropriate times

- Check six and call out threats / missile launches

- Sets up the TACAN and ILS for instrument approaches to the appropriate airfield

- Sets up the steerpoints for the mission

- Others tasks that I can't remember right now.....

 

Of course, for those that just want to fly around a glorified single seat F-15 and do it all yourself, you should be able to turn off the backseat functions. But at that point, why bother with the Strike Eagle when you're missing out on what makes it so capable compared to similar jets?

 

Edit to add: To the list above, the question then becomes - would you want those things to happen automatically - as in AI functions? Or would you simply want a voice-activated virtual WSO to do those things only when you tell it/enable it. If the latter, I could see some keystroke functions working well with Voice-Attack.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Notso

[Notso]

I have heard one of the guys from Polychop, while discussing the upcoming Kiowa, indicate that the current API is not well suited to shared cockpit for some reasons that were certainly beyond my level of understanding. Perhaps that’s something that will change in the future but it had ruled a shared cockpit for the Kiowa out at this stage.

 

I’m sure others could elaborate on that.

 

That's interesting. By "shared cockpit", do you mean two live persons flying the module together?

[QuiGon]

I'm not completely sure what you're suggesting then. While it's true that everything can be run from the front seat in the F-15E, that's not the way it's done IRL in that jet. That's what makes the F-15E able to do things better than it's SS counter-parts. So are you saying that the "Jester" like controls to have the backseat do stuff is not needed on the Strike Eagle module?

 

I guess what I'm asking is: Would you folks that buy it want it to be just essentially a Single seat jet if you are playing SP or even MP and didn't have a live person to run the backseat? Or would you want some sort of AI that fills the role of the WSO when a live one isn't available to fly with you that day? And if the answer is yes to the AI, what would you want it to do?

Looking at the discussions in the Tomcat forum I have the impression that many people would indeed prefer to have direct control over everythng from the frontseat... :music_whistling:

[unknown]

Looking at the discussions in the Tomcat forum I have the impression that many people would indeed prefer to have direct control over everythng from the frontseat... :music_whistling:

 

I like Jester but tbh Mr. "I lost lock" is sometimes just :doh: So, you lost lock Jester and you are unable to lock it again, but you point the freaking camera at it, i can see him on the monitor but you're unable to lock him with the radar? Let me click this button, oh look Jester, i was able to lock that enemy within 1 second.....i hope they fix that, because besides that i like jester :thumbup:

 

That's interesting. By "shared cockpit", do you mean two live persons flying the module together?

No, as far as i understand the problem is with "shared cockpits"-> sitting side by side like in the helos where both human players have the ability to click on the same buttons and have the same controls(flying) -> syncing the inputs is the problem. In aircrafts like the F-14 this is not so much a problem, everybody has its own control inputs.

 

I would not buy any two seater without any sort of AI.

[QuiGon]

I like Jester but tbh Mr. "I lost lock" is sometimes just :doh: So, you lost lock Jester and you are unable to lock it again, but you point the freaking camera at it, i can see him on the monitor but you're unable to lock him with the radar? Let me click this button, oh look Jester, i was able to lock that enemy within 1 second.....i hope they fix that, because besides that i like jester :thumbup:

Sounds like you have never really flown as a RIO in a combat scenario to be honest. If a radar lock gets lost (which happens a lot with the old AWG-9), then the camera retains its own optical lock. The enemy can't notch the camera, but he can notch the radar. And if the enemy is close in that it can be rather difficult as a RIO to get the radar to point at the correct position in the air in manual search mode to get the bandit back on scope. With the ACM modes that the pilot can use, he has it much easier at close range to obtain a lock.

 

And that's one of the main reasons why people complain so much about Jester: They have no clue how difficult it can be to deal with the AWG-9, as they are used to more modern digital radars from the Hornet or the Viper... :music_whistling:

[unknown]

Sounds like you have never really flown as a RIO in a combat scenario to be honest. If a radar lock gets lost (which happens a lot with the old AWG-9), then the camera retains its own optical lock. The enemy can't notch the camera, but he can notch the radar. And if the enemy is close in that it can be rather difficult as a RIO to get the radar to point at the correct position in the air in manual search mode to get the bandit back on scope. With the ACM modes that the pilot can use, he has it much easier at close range to obtain a lock.

 

And that's one of the main reasons why people complain so much about Jester: They have no clue how difficult it can be to deal with the AWG-9, as they are used to more modern digital radars from the Hornet or the Viper... :music_whistling:

 

Ofcourse not, how should i play as a RIO in SP??? I spend 99% of my DCS time in SP because all people i know like to fly on my PC in VR for some time to enjoy the ride/feeling but they are not interested in investing a lot of money in a high end PC + VR + HOTAS/Rudder for something they don't consider their hobby. So you are right, i don't know what it's like to be a RIO and have to handle the radar, i can only speak for my experinces in single seat aircraft and helicopter. Does this make me a person not worth flying the F-14 or share my experience as "F-14 Pilot"? And it wasn't even a maneuvering bandit(fighter) it was a circling IL-76 and he was not able to regain lock, i had to do it myself. I'm so "afraid" of jester loosing lock that i don't even bother to shoot my aim-7 because i know 90+% of the time he will loose lock while the missile is in flight.

 

Maybe this sounds like a rant, it's not intended as one. I like what HB did, i appreciate their work and am glad they gone the extra mile implementing Jester. And it's not bothering me as much as it may sound, i bought the F-14 in the first place to support HB and am hoping that they can do the A-6 as a DCS module, hunting SAM/AAA and ground pounding is what i do the most in DCS. There are better suited aircraft in DCS for that role but from time to time i like to ride in that F-14 and shoot some sitting ducks, but because i'm not able to use the radar/systems(as pilot) as i like compared to single seat jets i will stay shoot sitting ducks in the F-14 and go for a single seater for AA combat.

Edited July 20, 2020 by unknown

[Willie Nelson]

That's interesting. By "shared cockpit", do you mean two live persons flying the module together?

 

Yes, that’s exactly what I mean.

[sublime]

I've been pondering this question for a while, especially with news of Razbam's F-15E Strike Eagle on the horizon, as well as talk of other two-seat fighters such as the F-4 or F-18D and such being much desired. It seams to me the 2nd cockpit is what makes these offerings unique and special and brings additional capability over their single seat counter parts.

 

However, in a simulated environment where having a real person play the role of the WSO might be cumbersome at times with real life scheduling and time commitments and such - how does the DCS community see that additional role be best implemented? I've never flown the F-14 in DCS, but several people have told me that "Jester" in that game is not much more than a glorified voice activated task list. If I'm wrong about that I apologize in advance. I'm not meaning to throw any spears at that module. But the question is how best to implement the "backseater" into the game if a real person is not available to run the systems? Given the current state of AI in game is shall we say lacking, I would think that some good thought would need to be put into how to do this and make it effective. Or should these modules require a real person only and not use AI at all? Thoughts?

 

Well imo jester isnt glorified voice cmds.

Everyonr has their own opinion. I loved the f14 module before but once I found a solid pilot and we flew together a few times with a squad on certain nights - Ive flown single seat MP before of course but in the same plane? Nothing will ever be the same. I could go pee or something. We decided who did what. The workload dropped. We got to shoot the $$$$ on intercom and not mess up everyones radios.

That modules a goddamned masterpiece and frankly anyone who says so and hasnt played it .. its beyond me. Its also not even c9mplete yet and I feel Ive definitely gotten more out of the one module in play time and joy than all the other dcs stuff the last several yrs I played.

Ill also add HB are an awesome company. They respond to posts on their forum and dont ban you for criticism (cof cof) their viggen is also just a fantastic module.

Jester will be continually updated. If someone told me it was just glorified voice cmds thats their opinion. But i mever had voice commands give me calls outs on sams and bandits (which you can turn off) and it can do a lot more than that too frankly. Ill also add that the UH1 still one of my fav mods, was supposed to be multicree *years* ago. It wasnt. HB had the testicular fortitude to do what many had blatherrd on about then cancelled or scaled back or ignored. *because* HB took the lead and made *something* where we had *nothing* suddenly 2 seat aircraft seem eminently feasible.

Whereas before the f15 or mi24 etc one would wonder how this will work out; anyone can now watch youtube and see the very first version of a format Im sure everyone else will use and improve upon

As it is its very flexible and once you get used to it you van use it without thinking.

I also wanna add a last bit. I flew the f14 most the last yr in sp. I got a new comp and it could run things a lot better. No one wants tonplay RIO so I said f it ill do it. Guess what? Its a lot less worknthan the pilot lol! It was like 2 for the price of 1. I got to relearn the same plane from a different seat. It also made me realize that jester def wasnt glorified voice commands.

I keep going back to that.. that phrase annoyed me. Its just an opinion but Id suggest whoever said it actually try to learn the RIO pit and then tell me having an AI do that as competently as half the human rios out there if not better is "glorified voice cmds"

And i dont say this because the F14 is a total bear to learn. But its not the hornet. Its not going to tell you what you can do and hold your hand. The f14 is more like a crazy ex girlfriend you called because youre lonely. If youre truly in control of the situation youll survive the wild ride. But if not she may let you hang yourself. The F14 will happily let you rip her wings off etc if you jerk her around like a madman or 10 yr old.

That said it can go faster, accelerate faster, fly waaaaay longer (every squad night we never tank and in the same mission the f18s will tank 3 or 4 times. Sat we flew 4 hrs straight as a pilot/rio with one landing to rearm and refuel. No death) and do it looking cooler too ;)

[QuiGon]

Does this make me a person not worth flying the F-14 or share my experience as "F-14 Pilot"?

No, of course not. I didn't mean to attack you. I was just stating why I think that many people critice Jester for shortcommings that are not his fault, but are a product of the very analogue nature of the radar that the Tomcat has. :)

 

And it wasn't even a maneuvering bandit(fighter) it was a circling IL-76 and he was not able to regain lock

Circling contacts are actually a huge issue for the AWG-9 radar, as it is very susceptible to notching and a circling contact does notch you twice each circle. So yeah, it's not suprising that Jester struggled to keep a lock on that contact. In such cases it can help to fly below the contact. A really good RIO can also work some magic with filters and modes to get a lock, but that is way beyond what a Jester AI or inexperienced RIO could do.

And that's why it's so much fun to play as a RIO as it is a very demanding job and you really need to know what you're doing to be a good RIO. :joystick:

Edited July 21, 2020 by QuiGon

[Notso]

I didn't mean for this thread to end up being about the F-14 or Jester. It was just an example to start the discussion. What I'm really trying to get at is what would be the ideal solution in a perfect world on how to implement a two seat fighter in DCS.

 

Of course, the ideal solution is to have two live people manning the cockpit. There is no doubt there (I think). But for those times that a live person isn't available to fly the other cockpit - 1) would you prefer to just fly it and do it all from the front seat or 2) would you want some level of AI to attempt to make the F-15E module more realistic?

 

Because option #1 is not in any way realistic. That is simply not how the Strike Eagle is employed. Sure you can fly it around and do most things from the front. But you'd better get the crew chief to turn the power on the TGP, the TEWS, and the countermeasures in the backseat before you close the canopy or none of those toys are going to work for you.

 

So if Option #2 is what you want, then the next question becomes - how and what? How would it be best implemented and what would you want your AI WSO to do? Do you want the AI WSO to just do only what you tell it or do you want it to do things on it's own?

Edited July 21, 2020 by Notso

[QuiGon]

I didn't mean for this thread to end up being about the F-14 or Jester. It was just an example to start the discussion. What I'm really trying to get at is what would be the ideal solution in a perfect world on how to implement a two seat fighter in DCS.

 

Of course, the ideal solution is to have two live people manning the cockpit. There is no doubt there (I think). But for those times that a live person isn't available to fly the other cockpit - 1) would you prefer to just fly it and do it all from the front seat or 2) would you want some level of AI to attempt to make the F-15E module more realistic?

 

Because option #1 is not in any way realistic. That is simply not how the Strike Eagle is employed. Sure you can fly it around and do most things from the front. But you'd better get the crew chief to turn the power on the TGP, the TEWS, and the countermeasures in the backseat before you close the canopy or none of those toys are going to work for you.

 

So if Option #2 is what you want, then the next question becomes - how and what? How would it be best implemented and what would you want your AI WSO to do? Do you want the AI WSO to just do only what you tell it or do you want it to do things on it's own?

Judging by the discussions on the forums most people only use Jester as they have to, as the cockpit functions aren't mirrored in the F-14 as they are in the F-15E. So I doubt many people would want to have an AI take control away from them in the Mudhen.

 

With aircraft that don't have mirrored cockpits, like the planned Mi-24 or F-4E this is a much more delicate matter. I'm a bit afraid that devs might go ahead and allow the pilot to access functions that should only be available for the copilot. The Lantirn Mod for the Tomcat has shown, that there is a strong demand for that with some people here. :noexpression:

 

Personally I don't need any of those options, as I do only fly 2 seaters with another human. If that isn't possible sometimes, then I fly something else. But that's just me :)

Edited July 22, 2020 by QuiGon

[Notso]

Judging by the discussions on the forums most people only use Jester as they have to, as the cockpit functions aren't mirrored in the F-14 as they are in the F-15E. So I doubt many people would want to have an AI take control away from them in the Mudhen.

 

With aircraft that don't have mirrored cockpits, like the planned Mi-24 or F-4E this is a much more delicate matter. I'm a bit afraid that devs might go ahead and allow the pilot to access functions that should only be available for the copilot. The Lantirn Mod for the Tomcat has shown, that there is a strong demand for that with some people here. :noexpression:

 

Personally I don't need any of those options, as I do only fly 2 seaters with another human. If that isn't possible sometimes, then I fly something else. But that's just me :)

 

OK, fair enough. So for something like the Mudhen or the F-18D, you're saying that most people would be fine not having any AI for the WSO and just either fly with a Human WSO or just fly single seat and run everything themselves? I'm just trying to gauge where people's hearts and minds are on these modules should they ever come to pass.

[Kev2go]

Sounds like you have never really flown as a RIO in a combat scenario to be honest. If a radar lock gets lost (which happens a lot with the old AWG-9), then the camera retains its own optical lock. The enemy can't notch the camera, but he can notch the radar. And if the enemy is close in that it can be rather difficult as a RIO to get the radar to point at the correct position in the air in manual search mode to get the bandit back on scope. With the ACM modes that the pilot can use, he has it much easier at close range to obtain a lock.

 

And that's one of the main reasons why people complain so much about Jester: They have no clue how difficult it can be to deal with the AWG-9, as they are used to more modern digital radars from the Hornet or the Viper... :music_whistling:

 

jester looses more often lock in situations where he shouldnt and will sometimes be unable to regain lock in situation where he should, I would know because in SP situations i will sometimes hop backseat, and be able to do his job my own damn self. IN MP this is not an option. So i totally get what hes talking about, so the excuse of " bruh its just the old AWG 9 and not jester " isn't always the case.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Kev2go