DCS G-Model

[Shadow KT]

1) That's what I am saying, that should be the standard

 

2) You can black out with no paddle, if no warm up

 

3) It can do even more instantaneous (real life as well), but there are little benefits to doing so and more dangers than in DCS

 

4)You were testing G tolerance, right ? Not really a valid test if the parameters aren't the same. What I am trying to point out is that the G simulation is the same for all aircraft, if the others could pull the same G, would have had the same result. This is not indicative of its BFM performance either. Fly like you would any of the other jets (speed and G) and you will black out at the same time.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Shadow KT

[draconus]

I agree with you Draconus. But what I meant was that DCS is a flight sim and simulates mostly aircraft. The pilot simulation does not really exist in DCS at the moment, and it would be really complicated to simulate a pilot accurately since it involves a lot of factors such as physiology. I don't think there is a hardcore sim in the market right now that simulates human body.

 

What Fri13 was suggesting was not simulation, but a game leveling mechanic that involves a lot of grinding and role play, which is not what DCS is meant to be. There are plenty of MMOs like this such as WT and WOWs. No one wants to see DCS go down that route. Serously, bringing in leveling for a hardcore flight sim is probably the worst idea.

 

If ED wants to simulate pilot realistically in DCS. That is more than welcomed. But I doubt they will ever take that approach in the recent years. I mean currently we do not even have a pilot body in some of the modules we are flying.

There are already some pilot features implemented like: physical body model, oxygen system (color blindness, loss of sharpness, death), G-effects (GLOC, tunnel vision, color blindness, heavy breathe) and I welcome more of these (like cold effects, to finally use those environmental control systems) but I like the assumption that my pilot is healthy and well trained. What may be added to the random failures is some pilot illness, for those that use the option :)

 

There are already hard core servers with life and time restrictions implemented and I'm fine with that as an option but I agree that going RPG route is not acceptable.

[Lex Talionis]

.... i have 3 herniated disks in my neck from moving my head what little i could under 7.5+Gs. It is quite hard to move your aprox 10+lbs head, now 70+ lbs under 7+Gs. . Picture strapping 2 x 45lbs plates on your head and now move it arround like it ant nothing ...You cant "anti G straining maneuver " your neck

 

Being able to just look arround unhindered, under hi load, would be considered quite remarkable and generally unrealistic. If ya really wanted to model ACM, your head movement thus total field of view could be further limited when under high Gs (8+).

 

There are a multitude of consequences for pulling Gs as im sure you know. Of the more significant is the hindering of situational awareness by not being able to move your head intuitively.

You would want to make sure your head is positioned on the head box such that your field of view will cover where you anticipate needing to look for the duration of the pull, before G onset. Because chances are your head is stuck there untill you unload. (Actually what was done IRL)

 

Im not advocating for a level system. But maybe something that simply slows down your view panning speed as you increase Gs untill a point it is frozen untill you unload. Much like tunnel vision. Or something like that.

 

Head movement limitations is a worthy consideration when developing a flight sim if BFM is a cornerstone feature. It would certainly make DCS a breakthrough game if implemented correctly.

 

For what it is worth.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Lex Talionis

[M1Combat]

You do realize that nobody here agrees with you right?

 

I agree with him 100%.

 

What follows is not directed at anyone in particular :)...

 

 

 

What the folks who don't agree aren't catching is that it would be a volunteer system. It wouldn't be forced on anyone at all. It would be a choice that allows you to build a pilot in such a way that you would "lose something" if the pilot died. It's not some BS "leveling" system as you suggest. It's a form of investment. Easy come, easy go as it were. The idea proposes that if you've worked for something (your pilot capabilities) then you will take steps to protect it. You will act MORE REALISTICALLY when flying with that pilot. Not less ;)

 

You say you want "realism" but then you just want a full on monster BFM super pilot that's "matched" to all other pilots you come up against and you don't want to worry about how you play the game.

 

--> Ask Lex... :)... Was he worried about losing his "Pilot" throughout his career? I suspect he took great caution in order to not let his pilot be killed and have to start over :).

 

So... Who exactly is asking for more realism?

 

Please understand a concept before you decide you should sweep it under the rug :).

 

 

Also please understand that in servers where the option is disabled, and in single player if you don't check the box... you will indeed have your maxed out veteran super pilot.

Edited August 25, 2020 by M1Combat

[SCPanda]

I agree with him 100%.

 

What follows is not directed at anyone in particular :)...

 

 

 

What the folks who don't agree aren't catching is that it would be a volunteer system. It wouldn't be forced on anyone at all. It would be a choice that allows you to build a pilot in such a way that you would "lose something" if the pilot died. It's not some BS "leveling" system as you suggest. It's a form of investment. Easy come, easy go as it were. The idea proposes that if you've worked for something (your pilot capabilities) then you will take steps to protect it. You will act MORE REALISTICALLY when flying with that pilot. Not less ;)

 

You say you want "realism" but then you just want a full on monster BFM super pilot that's "matched" to all other pilots you come up against and you don't want to worry about how you play the game.

 

--> Ask Lex... :)... Was he worried about losing his "Pilot" throughout his career? I suspect he took great caution in order to not let his pilot be killed and have to start over :).

 

So... Who exactly is asking for more realism?

 

Please understand a concept before you decide you should sweep it under the rug :).

 

 

Also please understand that in servers where the option is disabled, and in single player if you don't check the box... you will indeed have your maxed out veteran super pilot.

 

I never said a word about realism in my comments. IDK where did you get that from...

 

If it's a volunteer system I don't think most ppl will use it. Just ask any WT or WOWs player if they have the option to have a top level crew or captain for free, they will never spend the time to grind from the bottom. And keep in mind if you die in WT or WOWs you do not lose all the skills on your character. The concept of leveling up your character is because game developers want to make more money from players.

 

Also role playing does not equal to realism, the system you suggest is nothing like the real pilot training except for the fact that you can die and lose your "training" in the game. So basically all you are suggesting is a one life system that adds the concept of dying in DCS. Sounds pretty worthless to me. In DCS, if players wants to do dogfights, they jump in the jet, merge and fight, then eject and respawn. Yes this is not realistic at all but you learn the aircraft and BFM skills from this. This is also why some real fighter pilots love playing DCS, because they can do stuff they can't in RL. Keep in mind this does not make the gameplay unrealistic. It's just the process that is being simplified. The jet still has realistic FM, and you still apply real BFM tactics in the game.

 

Again, if you really want to live a real pilot life. Just go and get pilot training, dont't role play in a simulator...

Edited August 26, 2020 by SCPanda

[gavagai]

1) That's what I am saying, that should be the standard

 

2) You can black out with no paddle, if no warm up

 

3) It can do even more instantaneous (real life as well), but there are little benefits to doing so and more dangers than in DCS

 

4)You were testing G tolerance, right ? Not really a valid test if the parameters aren't the same. What I am trying to point out is that the G simulation is the same for all aircraft, if the others could pull the same G, would have had the same result. This is not indicative of its BFM performance either. Fly like you would any of the other jets (speed and G) and you will black out at the same time.

 

I think it is approximately true that for the same g and for the same amount of time you get the same blackout behavior, at least that seems to be the case for pulls less than 9g. It is hard to prove either way, but for 7g and 8g it seems about right.

 

However, what I am observing is that the F15 can pull more than 11g for a few seconds without consequence to the pilot, and without a g-warmup. You object to the lack of warmup, but if it is the same for each trial it is a constant, not a variable.

 

Moreover, if no warmup is performed, then the F-15's ability to pull 11+ g for a few seconds without consequence for the pilot is made more objectionable, not less. That is just logic.

Edited August 27, 2020 by gavagai

[Thunder_]

Firstly let me say how pleased and entertaining you made flying simulation again for an “Ageing Eagle” like me.

May I suggest that your refuelling on DCS have a “damper” feature to stabilise and make the process more easy if the gamer choose so . ( on and off if possible ) that would b a good substitute for the flying g’s missing on the game from my flying days. I’m now just an 1,5 g Airline guy.

 

That would b a nice feature more useful on multiplayer and in game as everyone RTB or just fuel exhaust . That would make tankers a tactical part of the game for many inexperience users.

 

I hope that helps and I hope to join one group to work on DCS .

 

 

And keep on !!

[Fri13]

Fri13, DCS is a flight sim, not Sims....

 

And in reality you can't just jump in and pull maximum 9 G for 30 seconds like a some more special people, look past your 6'clock while doing so and all.

 

Yes, DCS should be about simulation. Why it would be purely optional function that "Hard Core" simulator fans could enable for SP and/or join to such servers....

 

Looks like you are trying to make DCS into WT (the Russian WW2 MMO, you guys know what I am talking about)...

 

A straw man.

 

If you want something like this, just go and play WT...

 

Straw man argument.

 

You do realize that nobody here agrees with you right?

 

Argumentum ad populum....

[Fri13]

Im not advocating for a level system. But maybe something that simply slows down your view panning speed as you increase Gs untill a point it is frozen untill you unload. Much like tunnel vision. Or something like that.

 

I would take a "career system" (it would be such more than a "level system") for multiplayer more gladly because it would help to solve many problems in the ways how people fly and perform combat because they do not have any limitations for what they can do.

 

One of them is exactly about affecting the virtual head movement. As you say that you reset head on the headrest on the position you want to hold it through the maneuver, and then virtual head (camera) can not be moved further away from that position. In normal display (non-VR) mode it would be like "rubber band" holding it there, pulling your view (camera) back to that position or requiring more to get it moved elsewhere.

 

For a VR purposes such a thing can't be done as it is one of the basic "NO!" rules that you do not change the camera if the HMD doesn't move, and you do not deny camera movement if HMD does move. As that is instant nausea. BUT, what can be done is use "blinders" effect, where you can move your head around and the camera moves as your HMD does. But the G-effect center point is locked to the original position. So example if you keep head straight forward and you start to pull G's so that you start to get the blackout effect, then the effect is locked to that direction so tunnel is straight forward, but you can turn your head around but you see just more black there. So you quickly learn that your vision is locked to initial position and no matter how much you look around, you can't move that "tunnel" around as it is fixed. Another is that we can slow down that "tunnel" movement as "rubber band" effect so it will follow your HMD at various speeds and be limited range from the "initial point". When you unload the G-forces, that "tunner" can be recovered quickly centering to your current HMD position.

 

 

Head movement limitations is a worthy consideration when developing a flight sim if BFM is a cornerstone feature. It would certainly make DCS a breakthrough game if implemented correctly.

 

It is truly required as right now there is too much impossible or very unnatural combat scenes where players are looking straight to their six, even past it, pull crazy numbers and have learn to keep the "tunnel vision" pointed at the enemy through the maneuvers. So they can track the enemy without major problems as they only need to avoid the g-loc and not care about anything else.

If the head movement (camera movement) would be severely limited, we would have more effects than just "tunnel vision", it would change radically how people will fly in BFM as you say.

 

When the dynamic campaign is coming, it is more than ever requiring a career system where players are heavily suggested to avoid stupid things, trying to be "aces of the sky" like in many other typical games. There is not much reasons currently to avoid taking any risks as "there is nothing to lose if you try".

 

Not everyone likes the idea of the Rogue, why such more realistic limitations and features should be optional for those who want it. Just like we have the game mode, we would have more serious realism features to be enabled when wanted. Granted, people want to be "aces" without any drawbacks, but serious simulation as well means the drawbacks must be included as well instead just the benefits.

 

It is already nice that one can go to settings and select "simulated G-effects" or "Game G-effects" or simply "No G-effects". Having more realistic G-effect limitations and affects to player would be something belong to "Sim G-effects" and leave current kind level to "Game G-effects" that people can keep enabled if wanted. Everyone would be happy to be able select their level of simulation.

[Fri13]

In DCS, if players wants to do dogfights, they jump in the jet, merge and fight, then eject and respawn. Yes this is not realistic at all but you learn the aircraft and BFM skills from this. This is also why some real fighter pilots love playing DCS, because they can do stuff they can't in RL. Keep in mind this does not make the gameplay unrealistic. It's just the process that is being simplified. The jet still has realistic FM, and you still apply real BFM tactics in the game.

 

And why do you talk about a such system to be forced for everyone? If you would even read my post, it would be 100% clear that it is OPTIONAL feature for those who want it. It would never be forced to those who do not want it!

 

I use DCS settings fairly flexible manner because many things can be done when properly used, like "No G-effects" setting:

 

 

And in fact, you have plenty of other options that you can go and enable or disable just for your taste and wishes. But do not expect that everyone else want to fly like you do.

 

Why I made the wish about a higher realism setting for those who want it, without even hinting that it would be enforced for everyone and they would be required to "suck it up". If you do not like a more realistic G-effects, you are free to set it to "Game" level and to be like now. Or you are free to disable it if you want.

 

I disable the G-effects in missions that are meant for a aircraft performance testing, as there I do not want to have any effects from the pilot but only for the aircraft capabilities.

 

It eventually comes to fact that the severe limiting factor in a aircraft performances is the "meatsack" in its cockpit. But it is as well a fact that "meatsack" in the cockpit is far more aware of the things that a remote pilot in UAV controls ain't.

 

But anyone is free to go and enable/disable all the features they like, and it is nicer if there are more setting levels for various settings:

 

 

Again, if you really want to live a real pilot life. Just go and get pilot training, dont't role play in a simulator...

 

Sounds like you want a game where you can do whatever you want without any restrictions, risks or drawbacks and force it to everyone....