Ka-50 Pilot in movie - What is he doing with the cyclic buttons?

[Triggerhappy69]

I have been studying the movie of a pilot flying a demonstration flight in a KA-50. You can download the movie from:

http://www.virtual-jabog32.de/index.php?section=downloads&subcat=29&file=807&lang=en

 

It seems he's fingers are pressing working overtime on the buttons and/or trigger while flying?

[ATTACH]15610[/ATTACH]

Notice he's right index or ring finger pressing a button almost every 3 seconds..!

 

What the heck is he doing?:cry:

[Groove]

I think he is pressing the Trimmer so often.

[Wags]

This is my favorite Ka-50 video.

 

Indeed, it is the trim button. When using the simulation-level flight model, this is something that folks may take a while to get used to - when maneuvering around a lot, you need to be trimming all the time for good, stable flight. This ain't an F-16...

[VS461]

Trim

 

Hi,

on a real combat helo, if you push it and release in another stick position, the AP will stabilize the helo in that pitch and roll and the artifical force feedback will effect from this new zero stick position. In that way you can fly the helo with light hand movements. During heavy maneuvering, sometimes trim button is held constantly:joystick:, in that case the AP doesn't stabilize and there ain't no force feedback on the stick, so you can breakdance over the battlefield:D... G overlimit etc...

Almost like you use and release Su-25T's attitude stabilizer in every few secs. But the helo doesn't want to get back to its stabilized attitude so aggressively.

I can imagine an upgraded X52 stick with real trim mechanism:)

Bye!

[Weta43]

Wags - or any other tester that knows...

 

from this:

 

Indeed, it is the trim button. When using the simulation-level flight model, this is something that folks may take a while to get used to - when maneuvering around a lot, you need to be trimming all the time for good, stable flight. This ain't an F-16...

 

&

 

if you push it and release in another stick position, the AP will stabilize the helo in that pitch and roll and the artifical force feedback will effect from this new zero stick position. In that way you can fly the helo with light hand movements. During heavy maneuvering, sometimes trim button is held constantly, in that case the AP doesn't stabilize and there ain't no force feedback on the stick, so you can breakdance over the battlefield... G overlimit etc...

 

It sounds like to get the usefulness or correct feel of that trimming function, you'd have to be using force feedback. There were supposedly bugs with the FFB in LO & LO.FC (though I've always used a FFB stick & never worked out what they were supposed to be).

Is the FFB option in DCS.BS still there, and did anyone do any work on the bugs - whatever they were ...

I realise that the most popular HOTAS setups used by "hardcore" flight-simmers don't feature FFB, but there are still good sticks out there that do, and it seems to me that as ED try to build a higher fidelity sim, getting the stick feel - ie the FFB - right adds another dimension to the immersiveness of the sim & getting that code right would be a real plus.

 

Maybe Leftside could start doing stick conversions on a force feedback stick :-)

[Triggerhappy69]

So what your saying is that, for example, when you puch the cyclic forwards to increase the relative air speed (and you have to add some collective to maintain level filght). and then press the trim button, the preasure on the stick is removed.? And this becomes the new mechanical zero-point for the cyclic stick?

 

That will be a challenge to incorperate into my pit..?

 

I do have an old FFB stick that I can Hack..? If this is part of the simulator...?

[urze]

I have been experimenting to 'marry' a X52 with a Logitech force feedback.. it works !

but it looks like Frankenstein...:)

I will post some footage when I find some time for it.

[Triggerhappy69]

I have been experimenting to 'marry' a X52 with a Logitech force feedback.. it works !

but it looks like Frankenstein...:)

I will post some footage when I find some time for it.

 

 

That's what I like about you dude..! Always one step ahead of me..! Keep me posted..!:thumbup:

[AlphaOneSix]

Trim in helicopters is used ot create an artificial "feel" in the controls when you have hydraulic systems moving the swashplates around. Without it, it is extremely easy to overcontrol because you can't "feel" what the controls are doing. This artificial feel is created using springs. When the trim button is not being pushed, magnetic brakes apply to a piston attached to the flight controls, so that any movement of the controls is forced to go through a spring. These springs provide feedback when moving the controls around. When you make a large movement, such as when landing or maneuvering, you press the trim release button (as in the video). This releases the magnetic brakes on the controls, so that the springs, in effect, begin to free-float and you don't feel them in the controls any more. The force trim has nothing to do with the autopilot system, which will continue working to stabilize the helicopter regardless of whether or not the trim is on or not. All that force trim button does is engage and release the magnetic brakes on the flight controls, which either adds or removes the spring tension from the controls. Push it in, no spring tension, release is, you get spring tension back. In other words, when the force trim is on (button is not pressed) the stick will stay where it is even if you let go of it. As far as I know, force trim is not able to be turned off completely in the Ka-50 (I know for sure it cannot be turned off completely in the Mi-8/17), it can only be "interrupted" by pushing the trim release button. In the AH-64, it operates the same way, but you can turn it completely off so that you don't have to press a button to interrupt it, but that isn't used very often.

[Weta43]

Urze - you don't fance starting with a Cyborg evo Force Feedback Joystick ? More buttons = more functions - might even be recognised by the saitek software & be included with the X-52 throttle ...

 

Or are you grafting the whole 'stick' of an X-52 joystick onto a FFB base ?

[urze]

I just put the grip of an X52 on a FFB Stick. The stick has all functionality beside it now needs two usb ports and looks a little bit wired (Frankenstein).

[Weta43]

:-)

[Flanker15]

How will this have any effect on the simulator? No one has a joystick that can emulate the effect.

[kiss4luna]

i noticed that the graphics reflected on the HUD is not moving as smooth as what I saw on F18 and some other aircrafts.

why?

[BullsEye]

personally i think that he uses the trim just when he pressed with the thumb...all the other movement are just "adjustment" of the grip.

 

I hope that we won't end up with a helo that never stay in position and you'll spend most of the time trimming.

[britgliderpilot]

personally i think that he uses the trim just when he pressed with the thumb...all the other movement are just "adjustment" of the grip.

 

I hope that we won't end up with a helo that never stay in position and you'll spend most of the time trimming.

 

You can fly the helicopter with no trim, but it will be hard work - you'll have to have big control inputs on most of the time.

 

 

For those without force-feedback, the trimming does still have an effect. Press the trim button, return the stick to centre position, and the input to the control system will remain at the position it was in when you pressed the trim button.

 

It works, trust me :)

[Triggerhappy69]

You can fly the helicopter with no trim, but it will be hard work - you'll have to have big control inputs on most of the time.

 

 

For those without force-feedback, the trimming does still have an effect. Press the trim button, return the stick to centre position, and the input to the control system will remain at the position it was in when you pressed the trim button.

 

It works, trust me :)

 

 

Well since I've allready made the cyclic stick handle for the KA-50, and have a FFB that I never use. And the mechanics will be integrated into the front pedestal anyway. That Settles it for me..! Might as well go all the way and make it feel as real as possible..!

[Flyby]

impressive topic

 

I'm glad I stumbled upon this topic. Very interesting indeed. I don't have a ffb stick, just a plain vanilla Cougar Hotas. But I look forward to assigning a trim control to the stick, and trying to sort out the rest of the controls. I like the video. It gives a nice perspective of flying the Black Shark. Little wonder Wags finds it as his favorite.

As an aside about the video, did anyone recognize the music artist? As a jazz fan, I enjoyed that too. The piece selected gave a peaceful atmosphere to the flying, and the impression of enjoyment at flying the BS.

Another aside: any projection on how long before engine updates make BS_world look like the video? Mainly I refer to the sunlight. It appears to have been a very bright day. I'd love to see that in a sim.

Flyby out

[Triggerhappy69]

Trim in helicopters is used ot create an artificial "feel" in the controls when you have hydraulic systems moving the swashplates around. Without it, it is extremely easy to overcontrol because you can't "feel" what the controls are doing. This artificial feel is created using springs. When the trim button is not being pushed, magnetic brakes apply to a piston attached to the flight controls, so that any movement of the controls is forced to go through a spring. These springs provide feedback when moving the controls around. When you make a large movement, such as when landing or maneuvering, you press the trim release button (as in the video). This releases the magnetic brakes on the controls, so that the springs, in effect, begin to free-float and you don't feel them in the controls any more. The force trim has nothing to do with the autopilot system, which will continue working to stabilize the helicopter regardless of whether or not the trim is on or not. All that force trim button does is engage and release the magnetic brakes on the flight controls, which either adds or removes the spring tension from the controls. Push it in, no spring tension, release is, you get spring tension back. In other words, when the force trim is on (button is not pressed) the stick will stay where it is even if you let go of it. As far as I know, force trim is not able to be turned off completely in the Ka-50 (I know for sure it cannot be turned off completely in the Mi-8/17), it can only be "interrupted" by pushing the trim release button. In the AH-64, it operates the same way, but you can turn it completely off so that you don't have to press a button to interrupt it, but that isn't used very often.

 

Now THIS is possible to build without hacking a working joystick..!

 

URZE: You being a tester and all.. Is this simular to how the FFB feels in BS?

[RvETito]

This is a force trim- when the button (with the thumb) is pressed you set a new tension neutral position of the cyclic stick and the pedals too, don't forget that. FFB owners will really apppreciate that but it's pretty much doable with all kind of sticks. The rest just have to build new habits- every time you press the trim button you quickly move the stick to neutral, same for pedals but I don't have them, I use the X52 twist instead. I have fire 'C' assigned for that, just where it is on the real thing. This is the button that you will use the most.

 

During manual hovering or any kind of maneuvering you need to press it once in every 2-3 secs.

[Vekkinho]

Enabling FFB in LOMAC used to cancel all trim possibilities, IIRC!

 

Glad to see that's working in BS since helos are a bumpy ride and FFB is a must to recreate RL conditions. Now, go snipe that Igla guy!

[Weta43]

Hmm

 

Thanks for the answer.

BTW - Trim works fine in LO.FC W/ FFB on ....

[urze]

I just put the grip of an X52 on a FFB Stick. The stick has all functionality beside it now needs two usb ports and looks a little bit wired (Frankenstein).

Last night I have reworked the the overall layout of the inside electronics - so I don't have to use the useless base of the X52 anymore and it looks not so freaky anymore.

The Grip is is connected to the X52 throttle (and works as usual) while the base from Logitech is working as Force feedback joystick.- with fully working buttons.

 

I will release a tutorial on http://leftside-limited.com after the LLTM.

(to all: Please be not upset if I answer your e-mails and pm's not as quick as you (and also I) wish , but I'm very,very busy at the moment. I could use a secretary! ;) )

[-sulan-]

Awesome work Urze!!! :thumbup: What kind of pipe did you use? PVC?

 

I've been thinking about doing a similar mod to my old Microsoft force feedback stick, on this stick though you can feel the stepper motors (I think it's stepper motors) used for the forces. And also the forces in the stick has alot of center play allthough the control input is very acurate and is without any center play at all..

Is that logitech force stick better in these regards?

 

Looking forward to the tutorial!!

Thx

[Phantom_Mark]

The trim function in the SU25T combined with the force feedback on my MSFF2 stick works absolutely perfect, no complaints here if we have to use the trim lots on this helo :joystick: