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MBB-339 planned armament and other Stuff?


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What armament has planned by MBB-339 aircraft. On pics we see gun pods and bombs, but expected see italian weapons versions and moderna and cold war versions?

 

Expected see a little "italian" assets pack incoming?

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What armament has planned by MBB-339 aircraft. On pics we see gun pods and bombs, but expected see italian weapons versions and moderna and cold war versions?

 

Expected see a little "italian" assets pack incoming?

 

Hi Silver_Dragon, really appreciate your work to keep updated the database;)

For the MB-339A we are integrating the weapons inventory qualified by the italian manufacturer, as reported in official documentation, they are:

 

Gunpod 30mm (DEFA 553)

Gunpod 12.7mm (Browning AN/M3)

LR-25 rocket pod with ARF/8M3 50mm rockets

Bomb Rocket Dispenser BRD-4-250 (4* practice MK-76 or MK-106, and 2*50mm rockets)

Then we have the canonical unguided 500lbs GP bombs: Mark82 (slick and snakeye)

 

Other countries certified the use of some indigenous weapons that are already present in DCS arsenal, and we will provide loadout for :

*Zuni 127mm rockets (LAU-10) by Argentina

*SNEB 68mm rockets (Matra LRF4) by Perù, Nigeria

*Hydra 70mm rockets (LAU-3) by Malaysia

 

In future we *may* add other weapons if we find enough documentation that prove the enter in service of a particular weapon, but no promises: as example, in an old press is reported a loadout of the adapter 14-3-M2 with 6*BAP-100(2*3row taller), but the little (I would say insufficient) ground clearence make me think that was extremely dangerous to takeoff or landing safely with them...

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  • 1 year later...

Does it use any A2A missiles?

I saw info about AIM9 Sidewinders and R.550 Magic but didnt notice any screenshot from DCS with a2a weapons.

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Posted (edited)

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https://janes.migavia.com/ita/aermacchi/mb-339.html:

Quote

ARMAMENT: Up to 1,814 kg (4,000 lb) of external stores on six underwing hardpoints. Four inner hardpoints each stressed for up to 454 kg (1,000 lb) load, and two outer hardpoints each for up to 340 kg (750 lb) load. RNZAF aircraft fitted for AIM-9 Sidewinder and AGM-65 Maverick. Provision on two inner stations for installation of two Macchi gun pods, each containing either a 30 mm DEFA 553 cannon with 120 rounds or a 12.7 mm AN/M-3 machine gun with 350 rounds.
Other typical loads can include two Magic or AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles on two outer stations; six general purpose or cluster bombs of appropriate weights; six AN/SUU-11A/A 7.62 mm Minigun pods, each with 1,500 rounds; six Matra 155 launchers, each for eighteen 68 mm rockets; six AN/LAU-68/A or AN/LAU-325G launchers, each for seven 2.75 in rockets; six Aerea AL-25-50 or AL-18-50 launchers, each with twenty-five or eighteen 50 mm rockets respectively; six Aerea AL-18-80 launchers, each with twelve 81 mm rockets; four AN/LAU-10/A launchers, each with four 5 in Zuni rockets; four TDA 100-4 launchers, each with four 100 mm TDA rockets; six Bristol Aerospace LAU-5002 launchers for CRV-7 high-velocity rockets; six Aerea BRD bomb/rocket dispensers; six Aermacchi 11B29-003 bomb/flare dispensers; six TDA 14-3-M2 adaptors, each with six BAP 100 anti-runway bombs or BAT 120 tactical support bombs. Marte 2A anti-ship missile completed MB-339 qualification trials in February 1995.

 


Edited by YoYo

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No AA missiles on the A or A MLU (which is the variant we're getting), only the CD carries them. The third picture you posted is a CD prototype I believe (you can tell from the shape of the nose). I-GROW is a civilian designation so it's likely a company aircraft used for marketing, not an aircraft in service with a military operator.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TLTeo said:

No AA missiles on the A or A MLU (which is the variant we're getting), only the CD carries them. The third picture you posted is a CD prototype I believe (you can tell from the shape of the nose). I-GROW is a civilian designation so it's likely a company aircraft used for marketing, not an aircraft in service with a military operator.

Thx for clarifications, honestly pity that no any self defence/offensive A2A armament (guns only). 😉


Edited by YoYo
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Il 11/5/2022 at 16:29, TLTeo ha scritto:

No AA missiles on the A or A MLU (which is the variant we're getting), only the CD carries them. The third picture you posted is a CD prototype I believe (you can tell from the shape of the nose). I-GROW is a civilian designation so it's likely a company aircraft used for marketing, not an aircraft in service with a military operator.

 

Il 11/5/2022 at 09:05, YoYo ha scritto:

Does it use any A2A missiles?

I saw info about AIM9 Sidewinders and R.550 Magic but didnt notice any screenshot from DCS with a2a weapons.

 

 

Il 11/5/2022 at 16:37, YoYo ha scritto:

Thx for clarifications, honestly pity that no any self defence/offensive A2A armament (guns only). 😉

 

Well, I-GROW was an Aermacchi registration for MB-339B, a modified A (serial MM54502) with improved avionics and lately re-engined with Viper 680-582 (the same engine that was adopted and transferred to the 339 JPATS demonstrator).
During the eighties, at Farnborough and Le Bourget, I-GROW was the battlehorse in static display, often in tandem with the bad brother I-BITE (single-seat 339K) with whom it shared some of the developments: a common view was the support of a wider array of guided weapons like AGM Maverick or AShM Marte, and AA (SW and Magic) but also a protection kit to survive in critical environment (Elt555 ecm pod and AN/ALE-40 chaff-flares dispenser).
The latest revision of 1993 introduced the refuel probe and new avionics adopting 2x LCD EFIS displays, (as can be intended with Advanced Cockpit Technology text written on the tail), and again re-engined with 632-43 as in origin: this was one of the latest apparitions of the B demonstrator, then the aircraft was transferred to AMI with serial MMX607 and the program was cancelled.
Instead, the born of CD is a bit different story: the C prototype was I-AMDA, two-seat 339 engined with the powerful Viper 680-43 (about 2KN more of thurst), fitted with HUD, RWR suite, SMS and 1 MFD but still a partial analog cockpit.
The first C customer was New Zealand that needed a transition trainer able to carry armament compatible with A-4K, so a new prototype was built (I-TRON) to customize the requirements needed: EO TV system to fire Maverick, Computer guidance for CCIP release (dumb bombs), AA modes of HUD with aiming calculations for guns and the sidewinder missiles. 
Then started the fork project of CD(Completamente Digitale) with Viper 632-43 and FD(Full Digital) with Viper 680-43:
CD for Italy (Protype derived from modified A serial MM54544, remarked MMX606)
CE for Eritrea (1st production a/c started with FD prototype)
CM for Malaysia (same as 2nd batch of Italian CD)
Italy and Malaysia that operate even the A variant, choose the same 632-43 engine instead of the powerful one, to keep the same maintenance line(and obviously maintenance costs lower...).
Finally, for answer Yoyo, I'm a big lover of the Macchino but supporting AA weapons on the A is sadly a no-go: the B was a prototype demonstrator and the 339 obtained the certification of this armament from C variant onwards (Mave and sidewinder) and FD/CD (Marte).

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Good to know, thx.

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57 minutes ago, CarloVecchi said:

Also with a2a refuel capability? 

I'm afraid not, didn't see a probe in any of the pictures they released; and, AFAIK, only the CD has AAR capabilities

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1 hour ago, CarloVecchi said:

Also with a2a refuel capability? 

"A" not, I think only "CD" version has this option:

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2 ore fa, CarloVecchi ha scritto:

Oh, we will also have the MLU? 😃

Also with a2a refuel capability? 

We will only have the MLU.

And no, no A2A refuel.

Remember, the MLU is a upgrade of existing A variants, not a complete new aircraft like CDs, so there is nothing a standard A can't already do

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vor 26 Minuten schrieb Mig Fulcrum:

We will only have the MLU.

And no, no A2A refuel.

Remember, the MLU is a upgrade of existing A variants, not a complete new aircraft like CDs, so there is nothing a standard A can't already do

Thank you for your awnser.

Was on the wrong way. 😉 

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On 10/3/2020 at 2:16 AM, Automan said:

 

Hi Silver_Dragon, really appreciate your work to keep updated the database;)

For the MB-339A we are integrating the weapons inventory qualified by the italian manufacturer, as reported in official documentation, they are:

 

Gunpod 30mm (DEFA 553)

Gunpod 12.7mm (Browning AN/M3)

LR-25 rocket pod with ARF/8M3 50mm rockets

Bomb Rocket Dispenser BRD-4-250 (4* practice MK-76 or MK-106, and 2*50mm rockets)

Then we have the canonical unguided 500lbs GP bombs: Mark82 (slick and snakeye)

 

Other countries certified the use of some indigenous weapons that are already present in DCS arsenal, and we will provide loadout for :

*Zuni 127mm rockets (LAU-10) by Argentina

*SNEB 68mm rockets (Matra LRF4) by Perù, Nigeria

*Hydra 70mm rockets (LAU-3) by Malaysia

 

In future we *may* add other weapons if we find enough documentation that prove the enter in service of a particular weapon, but no promises: as example, in an old press is reported a loadout of the adapter 14-3-M2 with 6*BAP-100(2*3row taller), but the little (I would say insufficient) ground clearence make me think that was extremely dangerous to takeoff or landing safely with them...

@Automan sorry to bother you, but, since we're closer to release, could you give us an update and comprehensive list of the weapons that will be available for the 339?

 

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3 hours ago, Mig Fulcrum said:

there is nothing a standard A can't already do

Well technically the MLU gets the fancy GPS navigation system where you can input navigation points, markpoints etc, so that's actually a pretty large improvement over the vanilla -A.

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Posted (edited)
Il 13/5/2022 at 15:13, Gianky ha scritto:

@Automan sorry to bother you, but, since we're closer to release, could you give us an update and comprehensive list of the weapons that will be available for the 339?

 

Weapons supported by MB.339A already present in DCS database:

MK-81

MK-82 LD & HD

MK-83

LAU-10

LAU-3

BL-755

MATRA 155 (introduced by Razbam on their Mirage2000)

BGL-66 Belouga (introduced by Razbam too)


Weapons introduced by us (code, model and textures) and integrated by ED as now required:

BLU-107B Durandal

BAP-100 with short adapter 14-3-M2 and longer 30-6-M2 (this adapter can’t be loaded on 339 but is suitable for Mirage and F-5)

BAT-120 (loaded with same short adapter of BAP-100)

LR-25-0(AL-25-50) and ARF-8M3 rockets with 3 types of warhead)

BRD-4-250 with training MK-76 And MK-106 smoke bombs

Conformal Gunpod AN/M3 12.7mm

Conformal Gunpod DEFA 30mm (and 3 types of cartridge)

 

this is about weapons, then the load out include:

Conformal Reconnaissance Pod with Vinten Camera(still not functional)

Fuel Tanks

Travel pod

Mixed fuel tank/oil for PAN version
 


Edited by Automan
added something missing
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Posted (edited)

Thank you very much, Automan! 👍

EDIT: some time ago (maybe in 2020)you guys showed us pictures of the airplane taken from below with various loads attached. If memory serves, there were Belouga bombs: have they been taken off the list of possibile loads?

And, if it's possibile to know, what are the limitations for the wing pylons?


Edited by Gianky
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18 minuti fa, Gianky ha scritto:

Thank you very much, Automan! 👍

EDIT: some time ago (maybe in 2020)you guys showed us pictures of the airplane taken from below with various loads attached. If memory serves, there were Belouga bombs: have they been taken off the list of possibile loads?

And, if it's possibile to know, what are the limitations for the wing pylons?

 

Sorry, yes Belouga are present, added to the list.

about Pylon limitation: yes, the first two pylons can load 1000lbs while the outer have a 750lbs limit.

Also there are some weapons that could interfere with flaps in landing position. 

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Hey @Automan, sorry if I keep pestering you today, but since I'm starting to smell JP8 in the air, I'm beginning to think about loadouts and you're on the receiving end of my mental jerkings... 😄

1) If I read correctly the Dash 1 manual (I don't have the -1A), the figure of 1.814 kg is the maximum for the underwing pylons only, excluding the wingtip tanks: is that correct?

2) regarding the BAT-120 (of which I had never heard before, thank you for that!), I see here

https://cat-uxo.com/explosive-hazards/aircraft-bombs/bat-120-aircraft-bomb

that it comes in two flavour, differing in the number and size of the fragments: are you gonna implement them both, or just one, or is it going to be a sort of hybrid of the two?

Thank you and sorry again for badgering you today! 😛

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6 ore fa, Gianky ha scritto:

Hey @Automan, sorry if I keep pestering you today, but since I'm starting to smell JP8 in the air, I'm beginning to think about loadouts and you're on the receiving end of my mental jerkings... 😄

1) If I read correctly the Dash 1 manual (I don't have the -1A), the figure of 1.814 kg is the maximum for the underwing pylons only, excluding the wingtip tanks: is that correct?

2) regarding the BAT-120 (of which I had never heard before, thank you for that!), I see here

https://cat-uxo.com/explosive-hazards/aircraft-bombs/bat-120-aircraft-bomb

that it comes in two flavour, differing in the number and size of the fragments: are you gonna implement them both, or just one, or is it going to be a sort of hybrid of the two?

Thank you and sorry again for badgering you today! 😛

About the first question, the last revision of Flight Manual and performance Data are only reporting the weights for qualified configuration used by MLU of Italian Air Force. Considering the declared mtow of 5900kg, the configuration for Flight training with no wing tip tanks(two pilots, internal fuel and 4 underwing pylons) rated at a weight of 4072kg, you can assume that about 1800kg are available for weapon load, but that is wrong, since this is the total wings load while the pylons may have limitations in loading imposed by static test or dynamic behavior ( ie. fluttering) emerged during trials.Sometimes the good old technical description dedicated to insiders and evaluators can still help:

C412A211-50CD-4835-9D7C-90EDB6894A83.jpeg

In this case, wingtip or not, for pylons we have a total ammissibile weight of 454kg x4 +340kg x2

2nd question
In reality BAT-120 now have 3 versions. Originally was developed by Brandt-Thomson in 2 version ABL and AMV, more recently, development restarted with Thales and a new generation LG (Laser guided) came out.The version we introduced is only the ABL (Anti Blindé Léger), dedicated to light armored vehicle. AMV (Anti Matériel and Véhicule) is dedicated for hit infantry and unprotected vehicles. 

The difference is the weight and number of fragments, 800 frags of about 12 grams for Abl vs 2600 frags of 4g for AMV, but the kill radius is the same(20 meters): but while an AMV can’t damage an armor, the ABL have kill probability for both armored/ unarmored and personnel, so I surely more versatile.

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Once again, @Automan, thank you for your answer.

1) I'm afraid my first questione wasn't very clear, though you probably answered anyway. When you gave me the first answer about pylons weight limitations, I noticed that the total mass they can bear is about 2.500 kilograms (5.500 pounds), while in the manual I found charts where the limit for the underwing loads is given as 1.814 kg (I don't have the manual handy right now, but it's in section 5 of the Dash 1, the envelope diagrams in there), so I was wondering if, beside the theoretical limit of 5.500 pounds, under wing loading was otherwise limited to about 4.000 pounds. From your answer above, I gather that, within the 13.000 pound (5.900 kg) MTOM, sacrificing some fuel, we could bring the full load of 5.500 pounds under the wings: is that correct, or did I misunderstand?

2) About the BAT, I saw there's a LG version too, but I assumed you weren't going to model it, because the 339A has no self designation pod; I realize now that you could have added it anyway, like in the F-5, which relies on external designation. Anyway, the ABL seems indeed the most versatile of the three, I can't wait to see what it can do in action. On a different train of thoughts, regarding it and the Snake Eyes, will we be able to alternate between LD and HD deliveries, via the fuze selections, or will we be able to release them only in HD configuration?

Finally, thank you for the work you guys did on the weapons side, the airplane will have a varied and interesting choice of weapons that'll make it intriguing and an effective platform on the battlefield, despite its limitations, especially in cold war servers.

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1)Yes, you must remove some fuel to carry heaviest configurations and be within mtow limit. Keep in mind that weight of the 6 pylons and the tips matter. 
And just to remark a note about the tip tanks: in the 339A they really are not a loudout like a fuel tank would be, instead they have always been considered an integral part of the wing until Aermacchi adopted a quick disconnection system introduced later with 500L version (cylindrical shape). This was so true that in old dash 1 the total internal fuel was referred to the sum of fuselage and tip tanks while the clean configuration was indicated as the a/c with tt...
Just to say, I would not consider realistic for a combat mission going without tips: except for some rare demonstration in the past, the 339A needs them since the fuselage tank is not sufficiently safe to provide range and a reserve for a typical CAS mission (180nmi in low level, and 4 x Mk82).
Unless to conduct a suicide mission, without AAR, the fuel balance is always crucial: more fuel means more time you can help your troops before rtb or remain on target for 2nd pass, etc
So, choose the right balance of ordnance/fuel for your mission, tip tanks mounted and LO-LO-LO profile 😜

2)Well, the weapons delivery manual doesn't provide further details on bombs different from slick Mk-82 (arming position N/T or T only) but says that the same procedures are used for weapons of equivalent class except for the dispenser BRD-4-250 for which the SAFE position should be used to fire rockets(not implemented for DCS limitation on double-use weapons) while N/T is for release of mk-76 or mk-106 bombs.
By the way, it's true that on Snakeeyes the fins are kept closed with a release band locked by a cotter pin connected to the Tail arming wire: if the relative fuze solenoid is active during launch the pin will be pulled and the band will free the fins, otherwise they will be like free-fall Mk-82.
We must still request assistance with ED for an hypotethical implementation, since for realistic working the arming wire should be connected inverted by the armament specialist: infact, the 339 doesn't provide nose only fuze switch in the armament cp and the tail only solenoid (by default connected to tail arming wire) should be connected to nose arming wire for working like F-5 or F-14.
 

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