Your latest experiences with the updated F16s dogfighting potential

[Contact409]

Real pilots are saying the Viper's FM is accurate?

 

Yes. We had long discussion with Nick on the othre post. He said WAGS was with his friend who is Viper pilot with some 4000 hours flight time. Says the Viper FM was accurate.

 

But we didn`t know how they were verifying this, they didn`t provide any details afterwards.

 

Well viper still in EA stage right ? At least the FLCS could use some update for sure.

[darkman222]

I am sure ED still will work on the F16 a lot. And fine tune it. I just have the feeling they released it too early. But its legit to me as they need money to produce it.

@skyblazer I did a quick test against an AI Mig29. With your advice. Seems to me, it really helps to avoid sustained turn fights and to get a lot more angles with that technique. Which makes sense to me.

 

No one wants to sit in a cockpit and pull and pull. It feels about right to use a technique which goes: pull pull pull. Then unload, the pilot recovers, then again pull pull pull. It also saves a lot of fuel too :)

 

 

I feel that I learned something special in just a few minutes. Thank you Sir!

Edited October 17, 2020 by darkman222

[skyblazer1]

Yup.... You don't need to revert to that sustained turn plan until your turn circles are aligned and you are on the floor. Once there.... You will probably lose to a DCS hornet because they have slightly better rate ability. So.... If you have a fox-2, this is where you pull nose on to threaten them and make them respect it with an IRMD, or die ..... Doesn't work guns only, lol.

 

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[darkman222]

With that technique I just won against the Ace AI Mig29 100% of the time for at least more than 10 fights in a row and one hour now. It went up, gameplan worked, Mig29 went oblique it worked, Mig got on my tail, well took some more time, but still worked. This was just the secret ingredient I was looking for. Thank you so much again. Lets see how it turns out online the next days. But that proves that it seems to be true that the F16 needs a lot of expertise to fight properly in it. Wich makes DCS really shine compared to the "other" F16 simulator.

Edited October 18, 2020 by darkman222

[Syndrome]

The hornet seems to be able to out rate the viper in a sustained rate fight. But, the viper can hit 9Gs briefly, where the hornet is limited to 7.5 Gs.

 

So.... A good gameplan would be to try and gain angles at each merge with a lead turn, while fighting 2 circle (taking advantage of turn circle shrink) and gaining energy with an unloaded acceleration between merges.

 

Don't do what growling sidewinder did in his video... That was a lot of wasted time -- the guy really has a very basic understanding of this stuff. Instead, start at .82 mach, perform a limiter pull at TCE to gain angles (you can hit 9Gs and the hornet can only hit 7.5.). Your turn circles will shrink as you slow down. Viper should slow about 100-125 knots in that lead turn. But, you now have to drive to the next merge. Unload with the bandit at 1 or 2 clock positions above your nose. Get back to 400-450 knots, and do it again. 2 or 3 of those and you will be in the control zone -- then you just need to be aware of the hornet's defensive ditch gameplan and not fall for the bait.

 

For reference, look at the Korean 3-3 for the viper and check out the turn circle shrink section in the BFM chapter.

 

Caveat, this doesn't work against a 9X capable bandit.... You need another gameplan for that. If you guys do this with 9Xs, you end up with a simultaneous death at the 2nd merge.

 

 

 

Dances

V65th AGRS

 

 

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

Sorry I missed this. Thanks for posting, gonna try it out. I clearly have a lot to learn too.

[104th_Money]

Another issue with dogfighting in the Viper is that when you max pull, the G's just roll smoothly to about 7g or so then gradually increases to between 8.7g-9g.

 

I think the current modelling of how long it takes to get to 9g is incorrect. Especially when there are documented pilot interviews that state that you have to be ready for high G load because it gets to 9g so quick.

 

The Hornet gives you 7.5g almost instantly and if your pulling the limiter it will give you 10.5 then a little less almost instantly.

 

Thats a good little chunk of degrees of turn rate lost for the Viper compared to the Hornet especially considering that the as you keep the turn going and bleed off speed, the Viper has an alpha limiter that will start kicking in while the Hornet just gets to keep pulling.

 

My opinion is that the Viper is slightly undertuned in certain areas of FM and FCS and the Hornet is slightly over-powered in certain areas.

 

Then you have the realistic G setting that is clearly not accurate either. A well trained pilot should be able to sustain a rapid onset 9g turn for at least one full turn if not more as is clearly documented all over the internet...

[skyblazer1]

Money is on the money.

 

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[gavagai]

Putting the FM discussion aside, my experience is that the DCS F-16 only has the advantage against the Hornet at 450 knots and above.

 

Take the fight uphill in a climbing spiral at 480-500 kts (~8-9g) and there is no way he can follow. This works pretty well against the Mirage, too. Once you get above him you should win.

 

Don't attempt this against the F-14 or F-15.

[skyblazer1]

Gavagai, that may work against a lot of people in DCS, but it is a BFM error for a few reasons, and opens you up to a big WEZ.

 

The counter to your 2 circle vertical spiral from an aircraft with less power would not be to follow you up, but to barber pole up, putting their lift vector half way between you and the horizon. As you come back down at the next merge, the bandit has conserved energy for a lead turn, and gains angles on you (and has God's G for a slice back while you are fighting that G), and a hornet may gain enough angles to enter the CZ. Against a hornet who follows you up 1:1.... Yeah, that could work. But again, it's a BFM error because you aren't maneuvering in relation to the bandit, and if that bandit has a sidewinder (which you would assume) you've now opened yourself up to a big WEZ. I know a lot of guys here fight "guns only" though... Just know you won't see any real world gameplans for guns only fighting. You have to assume the bandit has a heater.

 

But you should test it out and see what happens ..... Have a buddy fly that climbing spiral, then you only follow up half way. I bet you'll have a big advantage after the 2nd merge.

 

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Edited October 18, 2020 by skyblazer1

[Hummingbird]

ED have admitted the DCS F-16 FM is underperforming, their own charts posted in their aerodynamics paper shows it too, and they've reported that they're working on it.

 

Currently the biggest problems plaqueing the DCS F-16 are

1. STR performance lacking below 0.5 Mach

2. ITR performance lacking between 0.45-0.68 mach, and again below 0.4 mach (in other words, it's mostly lacking here, and it's most likely connected with issue nr.3)

3. G-onset rate being too low (takes quite a while to hit 9 G's at the speeds where it's possible due to the FLCS being too limiting on control authority/pitch rate)

 

Finally there's the global issue of G tolerance in DCS, where currently we're left having to deal with a rather whimpy pilot model only capable of just catching a glimpse of 9 G before he passes out. In real life the average USAF pilot is able to withstand 9 G's for 45 sec at a time, in a normal straight seat and without a positive pressure oxygen mask. An F-16 pilot enjoys the advantage of a reclined seat + a positive pressure oxygen mask, with the reclined seating position alone adding at least 0.8 G's of extra G tolerance according to multiple USAAF studies. Hence the average F-16 pilot should be able to endure even more than 45 sec at a time at 9 G.

 

 

Putting the FM discussion aside, my experience is that the DCS F-16 only has the advantage against the Hornet at 450 knots and above.

 

Take the fight uphill in a climbing spiral at 480-500 kts (~8-9g) and there is no way he can follow. This works pretty well against the Mirage, too. Once you get above him you should win.

 

Don't attempt this against the F-14 or F-15.

 

That becomes a problem if G effects are on, and/or if the F/A-18 jock is using the paddle, in which case he will outrate you going at any similar speed.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Hummingbird

[==Wiggy==]

I guess the question becomes, what kind of experience are you looking for when you fly? Is it just a game or are more a serious simmer? Let's assume it's a closely authentic experience you're looking for, since it sounds that way with the inputs given this thread thus far. The problem with finding the "guns only" BFM solution is that it typically will ignore other winning or losing cues. For example. The above suggestion. While it may "work" it also sounds like you are widening the TC and now bringing the fight back outside Rmin against a blue sky. While the cues are saying winning for guns only, they are screaming "losing" against an offemder who still has AAMs. So doing that would be a BFM error. It's the same reason Skyblazer1 mentioned that TC shrink is not meant to fight a HOBS equipped adversary. Really good post C.

[104th_Money]

@skyblazer1

 

Alot of people do fly 1v1 guns only, myself included. So for that demographic the flight performance matters significantly...

 

You are 100% correct about the BFM errors. In DCS however and possibly to a certain extent in RL, the Hornet should always win a heater fight at an equal merge.

 

Using 9M or 9X/helmet sight the Hornet will always be able to pull more lead first and take the shot regardless of 1 circle or 2 circle horizontal or vertical merges and the Viper would always have to honor the threat and defend against the incoming missile before he could fire, unless he sacrificed himself and just took the shot for a 1:1 exchange.

 

As far as the climbing spiral, its not really a wise manuever at an equal merge because early in the manuever the Hornet will always be able to pull lead for the shot. However if the opportunity was missed early then the advantage would transition to the Viper.

 

My best success in Viper vs Hornet has always been to get the Hornet slow first then use the Vipers acceleration to extend vertically and come back down on top.

 

As far as flying the Hornet full out using G limiter, there is no real hope of the Viper winning. And it gets worse as the fuel load lightens because in a 1 circle fight the seperation is just not there for the Viper to ever rate its nose onto the Hornet.

[darkman222]

Yes ED is working on the F16 and it is getting better every update it gets. So my question was just about a guns only dogfight against a guy who plays fair, and does not paddle switch. The sim only gets as real as the people treating the jets with real life procedures, which is of course staying in the g limits.

 

Apparently the F16 is getting there where you can play its advantages. Still not as expected but hey, let ED go on programming and see what that gives.

In a heat seeker with guns environment the F16 already shows many advantages.

 

That was why I was asking explicitly for guns only advice.

Edited October 18, 2020 by darkman222

[bies]

Another thing is we don't have the most produced C variant dogfighter Block 30 many real pilots were acustomed with this one (i.e. C.W. Lemoine), but half ton heavier ground attack SEAD Block 50.

 

Our Block 50 having very similar GE engine was half ton heavier, new avionics and reinforced structure to haul more bombs.

 

F-16C Block 30 from 1980s had better acceleration, climb rate, sustained and instantenious turn rate, higher T/W and lower wing loading than our Block 50.

On the other hand we have the most maneuverable Hornet variant - big motor Charlie.

 

According to pilots opinion Block 50 still should outrate F/A-18C rather easily.

Edited June 5, 2021 by bies

[gavagai]

@skyblazer, this thread is about guns only combat per the OP flying on just dogfight.

 

Anyway, it is a dynamic thing and you always adjust based on what the other guy is doing. 90% will just attempt pure pursuit, and the ones who don't can be countered in other ways. :)

[BuzzU]

Having a guns only fight isn't very realistic and is a video game thing. With that in mind. The Viper can pull 9G's. Why is it unfair for the Hornet to do the same thing?

 

It's just air quake and you win anyway you can. Do you really thing if a Viper had a paddle that allowed 11 G's that it wouldn't be used?

[Hummingbird]

Having a guns only fight isn't very realistic and is a video game thing. With that in mind. The Viper can pull 9G's. Why is it unfair for the Hornet to do the same thing?

 

It's just air quake and you win anyway you can. Do you really thing if a Viper had a paddle that allowed 11 G's that it wouldn't be used?

 

In my opinion it isn't unfair the Hornet can pull 9 G's, what's unfair is that the F-16 doesn't have an advantage at high G's due to the reclined seat + positive pressure oxygen mask. Furthermore the F-16 is currently underperforming, making it even more of an uphill battle for the Viper jock.

 

As such, on our servers (BFM/ACM clinic), we currently limit the Hornet to the limits the aircraft allows without using the paddle.

 

As for when these things get corrected, we might allow the paddle again (although I find it strange the F/A-18C outperforms the F-16 in STR at high speed), depends on what people in general say (we have a good bunch of RL jocks in there).

[BuzzU]

In my opinion it isn't unfair the Hornet can pull 9 G's, what's unfair is that the F-16 doesn't have an advantage at high G's due to the reclined seat + positive pressure oxygen mask. Furthermore the F-16 is currently underperforming, making it even more of an uphill battle for the Viper jock.

 

As such, on our servers (BFM/ACM clinic), we currently limit the Hornet to the limits the aircraft allows without using the paddle.

 

As for when these things get corrected, we might allow the paddle again (although I find it strange the F/A-18C outperforms the F-16 in STR at high speed), depends on what people in general say (we have a good bunch of RL jocks in there).

 

 

I agree completely. All I ever ask for is an accurate FM. After that, I can live with any weaknesses the real plane has.

[Glide]

I absolutely love dogfighting in the viper as it currently stands. I've got 100 hours in this model now, and I can't find anything to complain about. Turning fights down low are exhilarating, and you need to combine throttle and brakes to stay in the envelope. One other post mentioned staying above 450 kts, and I would say 350 is where I draw the line. I never allow myself to get into the turning fight because there are quite a few other models that can outturn the viper. Use your lightness and speed to gain distance for flyby runs.

[gavagai]

Having a guns only fight isn't very realistic and is a video game thing.

 

And I find all of the spamraam servers pretty boring. Setting up grinds with volleys of 120s is realistic but snooze-inducing.

[BuzzU]

And I find all of the spamraam servers pretty boring. Setting up grinds with volleys of 120s is realistic but snooze-inducing.

 

Split the difference and do ACM with missiles. It's over fast but never boring. ;)

[bies]

If spAMRAAM is boring and guns only not realistic - play 1980s with skill based SARH + dogfights with AIM-9/guns.

[gavagai]

True, IR missiles are fun, and the Viper excels with them.

 

If spAMRAAM is boring and guns only not realistic - play 1980s with skill based SARH + dogfights with AIM-9.

 

Yes, that is why I want the F-16 to be able to employ the Sparrow (so sue me).

[bies]

F-16 radar wasn't able to guide Sparrow.

The only variant of F-16 able to fire Sparrow was specially modified F-16A ADF with radar modified to guide Sparrow missile and two under wing racks modified to carry Sparrows and it's electronics - this variant was used only in small numbers by US dir defense in the continental US but it was quickly replaced by standard F-16C with AMRAAM.

 

No F-16C was using Sparrow - only F-16A with different and modified radar.

Edited October 18, 2020 by bies

[gavagai]

F-16 radar wasn't able to guide Sparrow.

The only variant of F-16 able to fire Sparrow was specially modified F-16A ADF with radar modified to guide Sparrow missile and two under wing racks modified to carry Sparrows and it's electronics - this variant was used only in small numbers by US dir defense in the continental US but it was quickly replaced by standard F-16C with AMRAAM.

 

Yes, I know, I've heard all about it. Other F-16Cs can carry it; I want a FrankenViper. ;)