Vertical speed when turning into the groove?

[Kingsly]

Word to the wise: Carrier landings are NOT like riding a bike. Definitely a perishable skill. 

 

After about a dozen WO’s I realize there is something I am definitely not remembering right. The diagrams/manuals all seem kind of vague on this - more or less roll into the groove at ~350’, 3/4 mi and follow the ball down. Well and good, but what are y’all up to between the round down and rolling level? I seem to be chasing after that 350 and end up with too much altitude at the rollout. 

 

Also worth noting - I cannot see the LSO station in VR, mostly just start my turn abeam the fantail. Pro tips there? That final 180º turn confounds me every time - even back when I was reliably catching wires! 

[Stearmandriver]

Using a benchmark altitude halfway through the turn helps; you're looking for 480-500ft at the 90.  If you've got your TACAN tuned and course set to BRC, you can see this angle right in your HUD and it's easy to make it part of your scan. 

 

My other advice will probably draw some flak, but: I use the ICLS.  The glideslop needle will appear just past the 90, and you can use it for reference until you roll out on the ball.  Just be aware that the ICLS glideslope and the ball are not coincident; the ICLS will bring you in low if you fly it all the way to the deck. But if you roll out in the groove 1 or 2 needle widths high on the ICLS, you'll be right on the ball. 

 

The reality is, in the fleet the use of the ICLS is apparently personal preference. You can find plenty of HUD camera footage on Youtube showing the ICLS displayed on nice case 1 days, so... I personally don't feel guilty about using it, and it sure beats that ridiculous FLOLS pop up.  I disable that thing after every update lol. 

[=Mac=]

Think of a marginal (rainy, foggy, snowy, ugly) Case I. I use the ICLS even in clear, smooth weather because it reliably shows you where you are want to be. If you know it brings you in low when you're close in, you know to make that adjustment. It's not that it's precise; but, it's accurate. It's precision might be a bit high or low but it's accuracy will be consistently that way. Consistency is what you need. (And I might have the precision/accuracy definitions backwards. Precision is the "plus or minus" and accuracy is "repeatability"?)

 

On beginning the turn: remember you have 15 seconds in the groove. That's a long time! Do you NEED to turn when just past the stern? You call the Ball at the 3/4 mile. That means you need to be level, on speed, and at the right altitude BEFORE you call the Ball. Nevertheless, if you're like me, memorize the words "Clara" and "Waveoff!"

 

Finally, remember your bank angle is going to make you descend. Power up. Then, BEFORE you level out, pull back the power. And, be very aware of the burble and what THAT is going to do just as you are about 100 feet from the fantail.

 

As a side note, I remember (especially at night) the ADJ's running power tests on engines on the test stand just below the fantail. My bunk was 1 deck below the flight deck on the port quarter, right below the One Wire and I remember well the irritating spool ups and spool downs in rapid succession. The Hornet spools waaaay too slow from what I remember on the J-79's (F-4's) doing it. Even when on the shore, you could hear the F-4's on approach spooling almost instantly as the pilot worked the throttle to keep his angles. But, that was well before even the Tomcats. I think the picture below is of a "B" bird because the Turkey feathers are really short. "J" bird's were longer.

Edited January 3, 2021 by =Mac=

[CBStu]

I agree w/ Stearmandriver. I use the ICLS also. I can't see any reason not to. It tells you your altitude way before you can see the ball. He also has a great point about using the tacan for finding the 90 deg. I use it to start my first turn 1.2 ahead of the ship, use it to determine when to end that turn, use it to know if I am too wide or too close to the boat on the downwind, and to know when to start the final turn. Why the he11 I never thought to use it for the 90 I have no idea. I commented in another thread couple months ago that it would be nice if the wake were visible to us in DCS. So thanks Stearmandriver  for the tip.

[Kingsly]

Thanks for the input! Good call on using needles and course line to find the 90 without scanning for the boat.  Probably going to do nothing but carrier quals over the next few DCS sessions. (Side note- really excited for the Goosehawk!) 

 

I still need to wrap my mind around this turn to final.

7 hours ago, =Mac= said:

On beginning the turn: remember you have 15 seconds in the groove. That's a long time! Do you NEED to turn when just past the stern? You call the Ball at the 3/4 mile. That means you need to be level, on speed, and at the right altitude BEFORE you call the Ball. Nevertheless, if you're like me, memorize the words "Clara" and "Waveoff!"

I always seem to roll out pretty far to the left and Clara at >1mi from the stern. Frustrated, I shallow my turn and come out so far to the right that the brass boots me to the Air Force... Haha. Re: your comment - is one not necessarily supposed to roll out at 3/4 of a mile? Is being a little long in the groove acceptable?

 

Finally, for anyone else reading this and trying to figure out carrier landings - don’t be afraid of huge throttle inputs. Going to that awesome phantom side note above that left hand should be constantly moving and dramatically at that. I was manipulating the throttle gingerly like AAR and remembering that tip alone solved half my issues.  

Edited January 3, 2021 by Kingsly

[Swift.]

Being a long in the groove is a problem yes, 15-18 seconds is where you are aiming, any longer than that and you risk forcing the guy beyond you to wave off for a foul deck. 

As for the turn to final, you want to always be at 28-30AOB, if you are lined up left at the start then you will need to think about moving your abeam position closer to the boat for your next pass, and vice versa if you are too far right. Get that turn consistent and then you can start to adjust things to get you into a great start.

[=Mac=]

3 hours ago, Kingsly said:

I always seem to roll out pretty far to the left and Clara at >1mi from the stern.

You're getting Clara because you're way too high. 600 feet at the 90 (your needles should show you where you need to be) and about 350 to 400 when you are lined up. Above that and you're not going to see the Ball. Clara!

[Kingsly]

Yeah, needles are helping a ton to practice being on glide slope at the 90 - or at least knowing what is amiss and having a precious few extra seconds to correct before leveling out on final. Lots of hook-up touch and go’s today. LSO bot hates me  

[randomTOTEN]

16 hours ago, Kingsly said:

Well and good, but what are y’all up to between the round down and rolling level?

 

Flying the targets:

600ft at the 180

450ft at the 90 (500ft if you follow the revised procedure)...take a peek

cross the wake of the ship at 350-375ft

fly the ball.

 

Quote

Vertical speed when turning into the groove?

I barely care what my vertical speed is through the turn. Vertical speed required is dependent on approach speed, and wind over the deck (headwind).

Approach speed is dependent on aircraft weight, WOD is mostly out of your control. You really have very little control over the VS required.

 

KISS: Fly the targets.

 

What is the next target? How many degrees of turn remain until the next target? How many feet of altitude remain until the next target?

I don't vary the turn rate for the first 90°. It needs to be kept stable. So the question then is: what will my altitude be at the next target? If I will be low for the 90, I reduce descent rate and reassess. If I will be high, the opposite. If I am abeam at 690ft I know I have 90° of turn to correct and loose 240ft (or 200).. that's gonna require a steeper descent. I can't continue that descent for the 2nd half of the turn or else I will be over 90ft low. But I know what the next target is, and what my trend is.

 

As A.E.W. said, "work those numbers." Make 'em work. Repeat it to yourself, "work those numbers!"

 

the peek at 90° is to judge a undershoot or overshoot of the groove, and adjust the turn rate in response. 2nd purpose is to visually check the descent planning.

 

You want 350ft at the start of the groove? that's a little over 90 degrees and only 100(or 150) ft to go. Fly your targets, work those numbers. What's the VSI number? Don't know... don't care.

 

If you fly the numbers, you'll fly it tight, fly it fast (interval), and barely have time to care about the ICLS needles either. By the time you can start using them you're seconds from looking for the ball anyways. The targets put you in a position to see the ball. Fly the targets, work the numbers, have fun.

[Stearmandriver]

23 minutes ago, Kingsly said:

Lots of hook-up touch and go’s today. LSO bot hates me

Man, can't believe I forgot to mention this:  go to the user files section and download "Bankler's Case 1 Recovery Trainer" mission.  It's a scripted mission that grades you at every part of the pattern from the break to touchdown (or there's a pattern mode that grades you staying in the pattern).  I can't think of anything better for tightening up your passes. 

 

There are options for the mission in the comms F10 menu - enable/disable in-flight feedback (progressive grading as you go around the pattern), disable the LSO in the mission (if you're using the supercarrier you want to disable the LSO in the mission or you'll have two people yelling at you lol).

 

And after the pass you'll get a whole gradesheet that shows your position relative to optimum at every "checkpoint" in the pattern, so you can see exactly where and why a pass started to fall apart.  Plus, the grade is more accurate than what you get from the supercarrier LSO, which has some bugs right now. 

 

You can stay in the pattern hook up and just do touch-n-goes.  It's great.  Here's an example of it grading a pass: 

http://www.twitch.tv/stearmandriver/v/818427432?sr=a&t=5s

20 minutes ago, randomTOTEN said:

By the time you can start using them you're seconds from looking for the ball anyways.

 

It's those seconds that make the difference in what kind of start you have ;).  It's all personal preference, but for me, I don't see a reason not to use an indication of proper glideslope that's updated continuously in real time.  But for sure, whatever works! 

[randomTOTEN]

22 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

It's those seconds that make the difference in what kind of start you have ;).

A well flown turn makes more of a difference.

Edited January 4, 2021 by randomTOTEN

[Stearmandriver]

32 minutes ago, randomTOTEN said:

A well flown turn makes more of a difference.

 

 

A well-flown turn makes ALL the difference... and that's what we're using the ICLS to help with; it provides real-time data about the vertical positioning of your aircraft through the final 90 degrees of turn.

 

OP, I told you the ICLS suggestion would prove contentious.    In the end, it IS personal preference and I was just offering my perspective.  Everyone should do what works best for them. 

 

But if simmers are going to discourage people from using the ICLS in an attempt to do it "right", maybe they oughta start with the fleet guys. 

 

 

[randomTOTEN]

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

But if simmers are going to discourage people from using the ICLS.

....apparently you want to take my comment out of context, and repurpose it as "flak." I don't discourage ICLS. I encourage altimeter use and timing. Yes yes...I know... that's not sexy. People don't buy a virtual fighter jet to fly precise landing patterns around a boat. To each their own.

 

allow me to repeat that line within it's context again,

3 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

If you fly the numbers, you'll fly it tight, fly it fast (interval), and barely have time to care about the ICLS needles either. By the time you can start using them you're seconds from looking for the ball anyways. The targets put you in a position to see the ball.

 

I actually can see some benefit from using ICLS for perhaps the last 45 degrees of turn if you lack head tracking or VR. It could save you from panning to look away from the HUD at the boat. But I've never tested that to see if it's actually useful (I use TIR). That's still a very limited use scenario. Anyways...

 

----------------

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

it provides real-time data about the vertical positioning of your aircraft through the final 90 degrees of turn.

Meanwhile, at the 90, I'm measuring my vertical position error to the nearest 10ft. How accurate is that ICLS here? Is it designed to even function in this location, with the aircraft pointing perpendicular to the final bearing? This isn't discouraging the ICLS. I'm merely offering (what I think) is possibly a better solution...

 

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

maybe they oughta start with the fleet guys. 

you seem to know a lot about what "fleet guys" do. Do they yeet around the bend to the ICLS? Or do they follow USN published procedures? I'm no so sure here....

 

as you said. DCS is just a game, and people will find lots of creative ways to catch whatever wire on the boat (from whatever direction.) It can be very entertaining to spectate. You can fly it your way. I can fly it my way (that I read about in RL pubs)... and curiously enough I never really think about missing the ball, ICLS or no. Passing through the wake of the ship my altitude alerter sounds at 360ft ASL and I'm a little more than 3/4 of a mile behind the ship in a constant rate turn, at a constant rate of descent. It won't be perfect, but I'll be fairly close. And I won't worry about seeing the ball or not.. it's just a question of when I'll see it.

 

Being in position to see the ball is just another target to fly through. Another set of numbers to work. Been trying to hit targets and work numbers since the initial at 3nm, 800ft, and 350KIAS parallel BRC.

 

You wanna be dodging flak over an ICLS but I ain't shooting it at you dude. Too busy nerding out at the boat and making smooth approaches (probably gonna end in a bolter anyways).

 

Safe flying.... play nice.

[Kingsly]

Setting the altitude warning to 360 is a great idea! Noticed its seems setup that way in the posted video. I agree with all these tips - just another tool in the toolbox. If at the end of the day the plane comes to a complete stop, its a good day. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Kingsly

[Stearmandriver]

Wow, that may have been taken the wrong way.  I wasn't suggesting you were "shooting flak" about the ICLS, just pointing out that it has a use as a legitimate point of reference.  It's one tool of many, and certainly doesn't replace the other references - it just adds to them.

 

It's like flying a visual approach: that's certainly a visual maneuver, but especially in faster aircraft, most pilots will set up whatever instrument approach might be available for reference.  It's not required (legally; usually is per ops spec) but can certainly be useful.

 

I only (jokingly) mentioned it would be contentions because there does seem to be a vocal minority of simmers who are insistent that ICLS should not be used for a case 1, despite the fact that it apparently often is.  Did not mean to suggest you were one of those people, though I can can see how it might have read that way, so... my apologies.  But yeah, we're all here for the same reason - it's supposed to be fun!  

[ruddy122]

Anything greater than 1500 VVI you run the risk of damaging the plane

If you are on 3 deg glide slope the VVI should read 700-800

The Navy calls it a controlled crash for a reason


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Greater than 5 deg nose down you run the risk of damaging your plane


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[randomTOTEN]

10 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

so... my apologies.

hey man, no worries. I seem to be in a string of internet misunderstandings lately. I accept.

 

11 hours ago, Kingsly said:

Setting the altitude warning to 360 is a great idea! Noticed its seems setup that way in the posted video.

Yeah it's incredibly satisfying to come back from a 100nm+ bombing mission just to have that warning sound over the ship's wake.. exactly where you want it. I should probably do some more laps around the boat myself.

 

...but check out that HUD video. I see something interesting on the 2nd viewing:

@1:01 I can see the Final Bearing is about 300°

DCS manual says Nimitz class has a 14 degree angled deck, but that seems like an excessive value. It doesn't match the HUD footage (boat not even visible) or the wikipedia. Can't find a value in the rl manuals. I've heard 8.5 degrees. Lets round it up to 10 for ease. 300+10=310 is the guesstimated BRC, and looks about correct for the video (@0:39)

reciprocal of 310-180=130 downwind heading... the heading you should be at 600ft.

310+90=400. Subtract 400-360=40. So the heading which defines "the 90" is 040 on the HUD. This is the heading you should be at 450ft or 500ft.

 

Now watch the HUD landing video again... with these numbers in mind. You can actually watch him working the numbers.

 

@0:00 100° and 590/600ft. 30° of the turn is already complete still at the 600ft start height. Either a little high or late descent?

What's his next target? The 90 at 040° 450/500ft. Watch, you can tell which procedure he follows.

He realizes he's going to be low for the 90 so he stops the descent (@0:10). Some of that turn is level at 510ft.

ICLS shows too high, he's ignoring it. It's not the target. The target is the 90.

 

@0:16 he's at the 90 (040°) at 510 ft. See which policy he follows? You can tell. ICLS still commands a descent and it's still wrong. 4 seconds later he continues the descent. The 90 might have been 030° or those 4 seconds might have been aircraft response.

What's his next target? The wake at 350-375ft. Looks like he wants 370 based on the altitude alert.

 

@0:37 altitude alert sounds at 370ft. We presume nearly over the ships wake. ICLS showing descend the entire time, a little less now. Still no ICLS course yet.

3 seconds later and the ship comes into view. There is no ball call.. but I bet he saw it at the wake. That's about when I start picking it up. ICLS was calling fly down the entire turn, and didn't have course until you can see the landing area in the HUD FOV.

Edited January 4, 2021 by randomTOTEN

[Brun]

Should you even be on glideslope at the 90? My impression is that you intercept it when rolling out into the groove and increase descent rate then.

[randomTOTEN]

actually he reaches 370ft at 315°, so 15 degrees of turn left for the groove. I think he was a little high still. That probably happened after the ship wake. Probably because of that little late descent from the 90, caused in part by the level off which broke the constant rate of descent.

Just looked up the CQ pdf and the position between the 90 and the groove is "the 45." I forgot about the 45. I guess I just generally associate it with the ships wake.

[Steve Gee]

On 1/3/2021 at 5:53 AM, Stearmandriver said:

...that ridiculous FLOLS pop up.  I disable that thing after every update lol. 

Guessing a .lua edit, which file please? Thanks.

[maxTRX]

56 minutes ago, Steve Gee said:

Guessing a .lua edit, which file please? Thanks.

 

\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\tech\Supercarrier\PLATCameraUI\FLOLS.lua

Edited January 4, 2021 by Gripes323

[Cepheus76]

I used to chase a target vertical speed, however, I found that using the velocity vector to set a desired flightpath angle makes things much easier for me. So, when flying the turn, I just keep it just below the zero degree line and later adjust it towards a four(ish) degree glidepath angle. Not sure if that is really the Navy/ USMC way, but hey, whatever it takes... 

[LTRMcrew]

28 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

 

\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\tech\Supercarrier\PLATCameraUI

^^^ Line 42 set to FALSE

[maxTRX]

44 minutes ago, LTRMcrew said:

^^^ Line 42 set to FALSE

 

Yep, sorry I was going to reference one of the previous threads on the subject showing what to edit but got interrupted and had to get offline for a while.

Anyways you said it already.

[maxTRX]

1 hour ago, Cepheus76 said:

I used to chase a target vertical speed, however, I found that using the velocity vector to set a desired flightpath angle makes things much easier for me. So, when flying the turn, I just keep it just below the zero degree line and later adjust it towards a four(ish) degree glidepath angle. Not sure if that is really the Navy/ USMC way, but hey, whatever it takes... 

 

That's pretty much what I do. As long as I'm on speed and on the numbers at 180, 90 and rolling in the groove.

Also, @ OP:  I don't know at what stage of your training you are but I would suggest getting used to a moving boat with wind over deck, right from the start. (if you're not doing it already)

Things look different vs. stationary or slow moving carrier.