F-14B with Sparrowhawk HUD

[SkateZilla]

4 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Iran's 'cats are finally at their EOL, so never say never. Also, HB could have gotten some materials that are unclassified, but not otherwise available. Remember, classification is often not the only obstacle to obtaining a document.

US DOD don't care what Iran says, the AM Program was a failure, saw that coming, but I doubt they are all EOL in the next 12 months.

Until all of the airframes are sent back to the US to be shredded they are still deemed a threat.

AFAIK, The last request for non-public manuals was not approved at higher levels.

There are US Regulations that need to approve the release of such documents. 

so for example, if ED were to go to Boeing and ask for Lot 26 Super Hornet Manuals, and Boeing says sure, that request has to pass through 2 more High level government programs.

Whether or not someone higher has changed their mind and approved the release of documents, or HB has decided they have enough public information to simulate the systems without them, remains to be seen.

if one were to dig through social media posts across the social media networks, the last 18 months it kind of seems like it's the 2nd of the 2 scenarios.

Edited December 10, 2023 by SkateZilla

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

US DOD don't care what Iran says, the AM Program was a failure, saw that coming, but I doubt they are all EOL in the next 12 months.

Try the next six months. They're expected to be retired mid-2024, with the new Sukhois coming in to replace them. I don't think they'll be sent back to US, but they're barely a threat now. An airplane that can't fly isn't good for much, and last I heard, only six remain flyable anyway. They're not doing overhauls anymore, and you can't really fix metal fatigue.

We don't know what Heatblur did, but it's possible they have public documentation that is not actual manuals, but some other, less sensitive documents that nonetheless contain the necessary details. Remember, they're simulating this hardware, not building it IRL.

[Naquaii]

2 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

US DOD don't care what Iran says, the AM Program was a failure, saw that coming, but I doubt they are all EOL in the next 12 months.

Yeah, going to the DoD saying you want the manual because Iran might not fly the F-14 anymore is probably not gonna get you anywhere unfortunately.

 

45 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

We don't know what Heatblur did, but it's possible they have public documentation that is not actual manuals, but some other, less sensitive documents that nonetheless contain the necessary details. Remember, they're simulating this hardware, not building it IRL.

That's actually a really important point many people forget. A lot of systems you don't need the exact details for, just how it should look and feel. Like you say, it's a simulation it's not rebuild it IRL.

[SkateZilla]

Does Tom Cruise count as a info source? he must've flown Ds, since he never got promoted, and likely stayed active through the super bug transition.

[PAIDtriot]

On 1/7/2021 at 6:13 PM, Victory205 said:

Learn to use analog gauges. The HUD symbology takes longer to read tiny numbers and process what they mean, and can only be seen when your head is aligned. You can glance at the ASI and see your energy state while your head is planted against the canopy under G.

 

Digital doesn’t mean better, and staring through a HUD on a combat intercept is a mistake.

 

While weapons information would be welcome, much of what people complain about is superficial and not well thought out by the engineers who don’t understand how a pilot actually interfaces with displays. There is also an artificiality due to a lack of human RIO’s communicating modes and picture. It was easy to know that you were in VSL HI because the RIO told you he had hit the switch, and you could hear and feel the antenna banging in a vertical pattern. VSL is just 1 Bar search turned on its side. It was obvious.

 

A digital HUD is not holding anyone back, your attitude is.

Tell Mike ”Nasty” Manazir that. 

[Hammer1-1]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It will, for the simple reason that no matter where they're scrapped, those jets are just too old. You can't operate a fighter for half a century and expect it to still function as a fighter. Metal itself won't be able to take repeated high G loads, Iranian Tomcats are already highly unreliable and simply worn out. Even if they secretly kept an intact airframe somewhere, it would not be able to pull any Gs, and F-14D avionics would do nothing to change that. At this point, the indigenous Iranian avionics are probably more advanced, anyway. That won't help them, though, because the aircraft can no longer be flown safely in a tactical manner.

They still use Phantoms, but only as bombers. I don't think they do any air to air. 

 

most of the aircraft is nothing but sheet metal. theres really nothing on those airframes that they cant pull off to chinese blueprint and machine simple items like ribs, stiffeners, doublers, webbing and what-not. I wouldnt be surprised if they didnt make any of their own replacement wings or any structural members. Even the titanium box wouldnt be too hard to reconstruct unless they couldnt find any titanium. But then again, at the end of the day its just easier to build another aircraft, and Russia or China has better airframes.

[Dragon1-1]

9 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Even the titanium box wouldnt be too hard to reconstruct unless they couldnt find any titanium. 

Titanium is nontrivial to work with, so it would likely be too hard for them. There was a point with Concorde that a meeting with Soviet engineers was arranged for that reason, they exchanged Soviet knowledge of working with titanium for something else (don't remember what, but similarly critical). A Chinese CNC machine won't save you if the titanium is showing metal fatigue. Which it likely is, after so many years.

As cool as Tomcat is, it's better to splurge on a modern combat aircraft than invest in more duct tape and baling wire solutions. Hopefully they'll put one of theirs up in a museum in Teheran or somewhere.

[Hammer1-1]

8 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Titanium is nontrivial to work with, so it would likely be too hard for them.

experience tells me otherwise. I hate working with it, Ive always hated working with it...some people swear its easier to work with than steel, but working it in tight spaces with limited tools screams to me golf foxtrot yankee. But ultimately I agree, however Im not in the unique position to see the value in keeping these airframes.

[Uxi]

The ideas that Iran was the stumbling block always seemed absurd. Info on what's already been released (135-GR) ruled be more useful for their 90/95s than trying a digital conversion. 

My understanding is more than the info is just not available more than classified,  though ITAR still applies. Some of the programs like LANTIRN and PTID were relatively small scale and not as well documented and simply wasn't preserved since there were already equivalent systems being developed for Super Bug.

[Dragon1-1]

3 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

experience tells me otherwise. I hate working with it, Ive always hated working with it...some people swear its easier to work with than steel, but working it in tight spaces with limited tools screams to me golf foxtrot yankee. But ultimately I agree, however Im not in the unique position to see the value in keeping these airframes.

Are you making airplanes out of it? I'm not, that's just what I read about Concorde development, but it seems that if this was the problem for those guys, it could be a problem for Iranians, too. The cage is not necessarily pure titanium, either, this might be some alloy that makes it even more of a pain, if they can even make it in first place. Even if you can determine chemical composition, there's more to making an alloy than just melting a few metals together. And finally, even if this was something they knew how to make and work with, setting up a titanium  alloy foundry to effectively manufacture ancient US jets from scratch might not be cost very effective.

2 hours ago, Uxi said:

The ideas that Iran was the stumbling block always seemed absurd. Info on what's already been released (135-GR) ruled be more useful for their 90/95s than trying a digital conversion. 

It is absurd, however it's consistently quoted by US government officials as the reason to keep a tight lid on F-14 data. When you stop and think about it, it makes little sense, but then, if anyone in the US government ever stopped to think, they'd be carted off to the loony bin.  

With Tomcats out, that excuse will hopefully lose its oomph. Documentation has to exist, because the pilots had to learn how to use these things, and someone sold this stuff to USN at some point, so there'll be some sales materials and executive summaries, too.

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Are you making airplanes out of it? I'm not, that's just what I read about Concorde development, but it seems that if this was the problem for those guys, it could be a problem for Iranians, too. The cage is not necessarily pure titanium, either, this might be some alloy that makes it even more of a pain, if they can even make it in first place. Even if you can determine chemical composition, there's more to making an alloy than just melting a few metals together. And finally, even if this was something they knew how to make and work with, setting up a titanium  alloy foundry to effectively manufacture ancient US jets from scratch might not be cost very effective.

They can recycle what they have on hand. I dont think it would be a big ask to get x-rays for deformities and re-heat treat the metal in their own foundries or facilities. Id also say they have the ability to trade that oil they cant get rid of to either Russia or China for some much needed assistance. But again, not in a position myself to see a reason why they would want to anyways unless it was a dire need to do so. They havent exactly been all that successful in producing their own aircraft except the few examples where they just copied one airframe into another into some mutant airframe. Thats what I am expecing them to do.

[RustBelt]

On 12/9/2023 at 4:12 AM, AdrianL said:

I would recommend that you do not get your hopes up.

This was  Cobra's reply to that comment

 

Sounds like they have a lead on some -1A. But not anything in hands yet. Or nothing “officially” in hands anyways. Perhaps there’s some sanitizing projects being done to provide the screens but not the classified whole deal.

[Dragon1-1]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:28 AM, Hammer1-1 said:

They havent exactly been all that successful in producing their own aircraft except the few examples where they just copied one airframe into another into some mutant airframe. Thats what I am expecing them to do.

This, I suspect, is the problem. Remanufacturing the Tomcats' titanium cage would possibly require techniques that Iranians do not posses, because they're not great at making their own aircraft. The Tomcat was designed for production in relatively advanced US facilities, and there was plenty know-how involved that Iranians never had a chance to get. If they had the ability to remake the Tomcats, they would have built new jets of similar design already, like what they did with the F-5s. The fact that they're keeping the originals in service until mid-2024s implies that there's something they're missing. I doubt they could trade oil for know-how with Russians or Chinese (nevermind that both mine their own), because they have little interest in Iran building their own planes as opposed to buying the ones they make. 

[WarthogOsl]

Of all the things that would need replacing, I'd guess that the wing box would be amongst the last.  There've been cases where F-14's crashed and the wing box was found buried in the ground, pretty much undamaged.

[Hammer1-1]

8 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

Of all the things that would need replacing, I'd guess that the wing box would be amongst the last.  There've been cases where F-14's crashed and the wing box was found buried in the ground, pretty much undamaged.

granted titanium gets strengthened by cold working, titanium is still susceptible to cracking from vibration. Ive never worked on a tomcat before, much less a museum piece thats been flying for 40+ years, by far the hardest thing a bird in heavy maintenance of that age would be the electrical issues followed by hydraulic lines, but any fatigue from the titanium box would be their greatest obstacle.

[Dragon1-1]

11 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

Of all the things that would need replacing, I'd guess that the wing box would be amongst the last.

Definitely, but after 40 years, they've pretty much replaced everything else already. That's why I mentioned the titanium box, it'll be the last and the most troublesome part to fail. It's not something that goes easily, but when it does go, you're left with a Tomcat-shaped spare parts rack, not a plane (unless it happens mid-flight, in which case you've got a pile of scrap spread under the flight path). Titanium can crack from vibration, and it's been vibrating a lot over all those years, so to speak. 

[SkateZilla]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:56 AM, Hammer1-1 said:

granted titanium gets strengthened by cold working, titanium is still susceptible to cracking from vibration. Ive never worked on a tomcat before, much less a museum piece thats been flying for 40+ years, by far the hardest thing a bird in heavy maintenance of that age would be the electrical issues followed by hydraulic lines, but any fatigue from the titanium box would be their greatest obstacle.

F-14s have both Hydraulic and Electronic issues off the line.

All surviving US Airframes had the wing box cut...

[Hammer1-1]

4 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

F-14s have both Hydraulic and Electronic issues off the line.

 

I thought I implied that...thats fairly common on any aircraft nowadays as well. But that also goes along with aging hydraulic lines and boost pumps, accumulators, relief valves, the whole works. These items would be mapped with a hydraulic schematic and blue printed with parts no longer in service or production. I imagine F14s being hydraulics nightmares with even the most sadistic plumber.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Hammer1-1

[SkateZilla]

11 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I thought I implied that...thats fairly common on any aircraft nowadays as well. But that also goes along with aging hydraulic lines and boost pumps, accumulators, relief valves, the whole works. These items would be mapped with a hydraulic schematic and blue printed with parts no longer in service or production. I imagine F14s being hydraulics nightmares with even the most sadistic plumber.

 

Look at sat photo's of NAS Oceana's Tarmax in the 90s, then look at NAS Oceana today..

[Hammer1-1]

12 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

Look at sat photo's of NAS Oceana's Tarmax in the 90s, then look at NAS Oceana today..

oh I get it. Oceana is basically one big superfund now.

[SkateZilla]

6 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

oh I get it. Oceana is basically one big superfund now.

Oceana in the 80s and 90s was one big oil / hydraulic fluid stain,
Oceana in the 2010's Plus is super clean.

Edited December 21, 2023 by SkateZilla

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

Oceana in the 80s and 90s was one big oil / hydraulic fluid stain,
Oceana in the 2010's Plus is super clean.

 

Eh, I believe thats more legal reasons than a single aircraft being out of service. The EPA practically drops the hammer on all military bases from what Ive seen and I recall it being like that since I was in 20+ years ago. I worked on all sorts of hydraulics nightmares that the EPA dinged us on all the time: M9 ACEs, SEE Tracks, 25 ton cranes...the moment an oil drip hit the deck, it HAD to be cleaned up immediately and a pan placed under it.