VR Future

[StevanJ]

50 minutes ago, DutchCoolHand said:

Hotas on your desk???? that is not a honest comparison. I have had my hotas setup at the right position and height since I started flying in VR. I just got the WheelStand Pro to replace my 1 year old Foxx clamps. My arms and hands are where they would be in a real plane. I have had it happen where I want to lean my elbow on the canopy rail to have my elbow fall down as it is not there off course. I would love to see a video of you using it. How do you do the small inputs when you do Air to Air refueling for example.

Okay, so You buy a brand new HOTAS £450 for a warthog, then youve got to spend money getting 'Stands/clamps' for the desk at £150? Just to have a few extra buttons- It just doesnt seem like good value to me.
Ive seen guys with track IR buying MFD's, and Panels with their HOTAS and im thinking why would you spend that money on that when you can click an MFD in VR..
Then i see guys with VR who buy panels that they cant see without lifting the visor.

Where do we draw the line? You want to fly F16, so you move the clamp to the right, then back for the FA-18, then you want to fly the Harrier with a standard throttle too, after a while you see guys having fun in choppers too, so how do you realistically set up a collective for the Huey? Using a HOTAS throttle?

I just want to enjoy the game, and the way i play it, means no wires, no hassle, no fuss.
I can play anywhere i want, front room on the sofa, in a hotel room miles from home, i can even play on the toilet.
It just seems way more efficient than getting my HOTAS out every time i want a 'few extra buttons' when theres a keyboard infront of me.
You show me something you can do with a HOTAS, and ill show you how you do it in VR with touch controls. Without having to spend all that extra money on a hotas/ collective/ stands/ mfds..

This is the line, half the poeple want a HOTAS because its easy to fly with (which i agree- with a HOTAS its much easier), which means now they can easily fly a plane, and refuel with ease.

The other half want to experience what its actually like to fly an F16 by the pit of their seat.
And once youve done everything with VRTC, you kinda look back and ask if its actually worth getting out the HOTAS again? It just wasnt for me.

How to refuel in the Air..
So, you might know, that once you click the 'refuel probe/port button', the planes sensitivity is literally halved.
So in the F-16 while im sat back in my chair, All i do is fly to it, gauging speed, and move into formation. The F16 is phenomenal, in that its flight model completely changes once youve opened the port. You can literally do it in fog or at night without any real issues of making a mistake. Its that good now!
The FA-18 is similar, but as youve a larger window to make a mistake, you just stick it in there and think of england..
Its hard the first time you do it, the second time, its uncomfortable, every time after that its breezy you normally approach at Mach 1, pull 6 g's around the tanker, and just pull up behind 20 knots a little too fast to hear 'cleared contact'. Once youve connected you just look around and take in the view.

It aint for everyone, its hard.. But then so is flying a real plane. If it was as easy as that, we'd all be pilots.
I could hook my HOTAS up right now, have wires everywhere, trim out my plane, and air- to air in about 30 seconds without really needing to touch the controls, or i could just pick up my quest (with Virtual Desktop so no wires), and do it as close to how ive seen them do it in the Navy / Airforce..

Have a go.. Make a video..
Its good fun..

Edited March 18, 2021 by StevanJ

[William]

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

 

The VR controllers are never as real as HOTAS is. 

 

1) You do not have the functions the real HOTAS has, that you can bind to Joystick and Throttle.

2) You never have the physical feedback of the stick and throttle with VR controllers. You need to float your hands in the air, not rested on the stick and throttle.

3) You are required to use keyboard, voice command software for the real HOTAS functions and that is unrealistic, you are literally using same wrong controllers for every aircraft there is.

 

What you benefit from, is physical controllers for stick and throttle/collective. You want to have enough buttons, hats and axis in both of them so you can bind only the real functions to them (nothing else). And then in VR, you really benefit from a proper hand tracking (still lacking in DCS, but there are great things out there to come near it) so you need to move hand next to the cockpit buttons, switches etc to operate them (you don't use HOTAS for landing gear, for UFC, for MFCD's etc). 

 

The CtrlPoint that is sold here is great replacement for mouse, but AFAIK it doesn't have a depth axis, so you don't need to put your hand close to the controls, but you do so naturally, but still you have a cross on screen. Until example Eagle Dynamics implements the Oculus Quest hand detection API (they already have touch controllers) then somekind extra controller is required. 

 

With real HOTAS you don't need to be creative to make realistic bindings, depending your choice of joystick and throttle naturally. So if you have a 2 button joystick, you can't do as much as with joystick full of those. 

Here is my examples:

 

 

 

Because you have N+1 amount of buttons, hats and switches, it doesn't mean you need to put everything there. 

To go for a realistic behavior, you don't need to own all the grips there are for various bases either. Sure that is the closest you can get, but it is not required.

 

All that you are required is to jump in the cockpit, look at the real stick and throttle, then open options and open the corresponding category and bind the functions that really are only in them and closest possible manner. Like example the F/A-18C Hornet and AV-8B N/A Harrier sticks are same, but in the Harrier the SCS and Trim has swapped their places. The trim is more important (under thumb) than the Sensor Select Switch (right side of the stick). While in the Hornet the Sensor Control Switch is more important than Trim hat.

 

You simply copy the real functions and layout to your joystick and throttle and you leave everything else out of them. So no gear levers, no OSB, no LTD/R, no Brakes, no Bypass etc to them. If throttle and stick doesn't have them, then they don't go to HOTAS. 

Everything else in the cockpit, you do by your hands. You move your hands around. And you will learn example in Hornet that you can't reach a LTD/R switch with your left hand on right side panel, but you need to use right hand to operate it.

 

What comes to use just the touch controllers or other VR controllers to use the virtual stick and throttle in the cockpit, it works for emergency situation like you just need to test something for a minute or two. but to fly for hours with those, it doesn't work at all so well as with physical stick between your legs (or side of your leg as with F-16) and throttle at the side to rest your hands on them and having all the proper functions under your fingertips. As those sticks are far more realistic than having this in your hands to fly the aircraft:

 

 

You just eventually have one and only one controller and functionality in your posession, instead different functions and different layouts.

Instead example VKB has gone for a modularity in their sticks, just waiting to see that they do higher level modularity to their top sticks.

 

 

As example in it you can swap two hats between 8-way hat + push or 2-axis + push mini-stick. Someone likely comes around and allows to be even more modular and switch every single of those six positions (3x2 rows) to be either button, hat or mini-stick.

On that moment one could make the wanted layout, but not be so easily swapping them between flight as changing whole grip.

 

Edit: of course F-16 and such benefits from the sidemounted stick with short throw, why you can have a quick clam system that allows you to move stick from between legs to side in 15 seconds and shorten it in few seconds by removing possible extension. So you don't need to own multiple bases and grips to do that.

 

 

I'm with you, I want an HOTAS at the end, because with some extra support it will be at the exact place like the real plane, more the sensation is real because the joystick is here. No compromise here, for the question of how to map the HOTAS for it's simple if I can buy an Thrustmaster I put the F/A-18 stick on it an fly with the F/A-18. End of story.

 

There is here a point who is problemetic with Quest 2, when I fly with the Su 25 or the TF-51, when I engage a loop for exemple and I look where I want to go the IR google camrea (x4 on the Quest II) loos e tracking of my OT an the aircraft return to initail position thus no more follow my path. +1 point for the HOTAS w/ Quest II and OT.

 

But now I research for fly with only my Oculus, but I know in a near futur a HOTAS will be better.

 

1 hour ago, DutchCoolHand said:

Having my hand on the stick provides feedback on how much input I give. This is not asking to be too realistic. When I use VTOLVR and use the controllers I still have some feedback.

 

I agree with you. But I haven't yet a HOTAS, but you will sponsorize me ?

Edited March 18, 2021 by William

[DutchCoolHand]

StevanJ,

 

I can agree with your points when you start from zero and have to buy everything. And regarding "It aint for everyone, its hard.. But then so is flying a real plane. If it was as easy as that, we'd all be pilots."

I am private pilot with 430+ hours 

 

 

[Fri13]

Just now, William said:

I'm with you, I want an HOTAS at the end, because with some extra support it will be at the exact place like the real plane, more the sensation is real because the joystick is here. No compromise here, for the question of how to map the HOTAS for it's simple if I can buy an Thrustmaster I put the F/A-18 stick on it an fly with the F/A-18. End of story.

 

No need to buy the F/A-18C grip to it to have a proper bindings, you just leave the few features unused, but if you just fly the F/A-18C Hornet and you want exactly that experience for the money, there is no better way to go. 

 

Just now, William said:

There is here a point who is problemetic with Quest 2, when I fly with the Su 25 or the TF-51, when I engage a loop for exemple and I look where I want to go the IR google camrea (x4 on the Quest II) loos e tracking of my OT an the aircraft return to initail position thus no more follow my path. +1 point for the HOTAS w/ Quest II and OT.

 

Now I didn't understand that part. What you mean with "OT" and do you mean with "aircraft return to initial position" that tracking is lost and the view recenters to default forward position? As that is a problem when you have a low-light room where is not enough details (contrast) to lock on. The Quest 2 (as Rift S etc) builds a 3D map of the room where it is. And it has few specific key points in its memory that where they are suppose to be and if it loses track on those, then it resets. 

 

Just now, William said:

But now I research for fly with only my Oculus, but I know in a near futur a HOTAS will be better.

 

The hand controlles are great when you are on the go (just take a laptop + Quest 2 + hand controllers) and you want to demo something or just fly a short moments with simple aircraft like a Yak-52. But lack of the real stick and throttle functions fill limit seriously the flight capabilities and the realism part.

If we just could rebind the Touch Controllers functions, we could have at least something else there. Like example:

 

Trigger = Shoot/Launch, use the touch sensitivity as "First trigger" and pull as "Second trigger".

Grip = Touch = multiplier 1, Pull = Grab

Mini-stick = Trim, + Multiplier 1 = Mini-stick for sensors or 4-way hat etc.

A = Touch Multiplier 2, press Button 1

B = Touch multiplier 3, press Button 2

Touch area = Switch/Multiplier (for the grip example etc)

 

Now there would be possibility get around some of the aircraft functions with just two controllers.

 

 

Just now, DutchCoolHand said:

I can agree with your points when you start from zero and have to buy everything.

 

When starting from zero, it is best to just get a good display and then any cheap joystick that has one hat and at least 3 buttons for trigger/thumb use. And then just use the keyboard.

The VR is not worth it if not ready to really go for fully in. 

[William]

5 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

No need to buy the F/A-18C grip to it to have a proper bindings, you just leave the few features unused, but if you just fly the F/A-18C Hornet and you want exactly that experience for the money, there is no better way to go. 

 

 

Now I didn't understand that part. What you mean with "OT" and do you mean with "aircraft return to initial position" that tracking is lost and the view recenters to default forward position? As that is a problem when you have a low-light room where is not enough details (contrast) to lock on. The Quest 2 (as Rift S etc) builds a 3D map of the room where it is. And it has few specific key points in its memory that where they are suppose to be and if it loses track on those, then it resets. 

 

 

The hand controlles are great when you are on the go (just take a laptop + Quest 2 + hand controllers) and you want to demo something or just fly a short moments with simple aircraft like a Yak-52. But lack of the real stick and throttle functions fill limit seriously the flight capabilities and the realism part.

If we just could rebind the Touch Controllers functions, we could have at least something else there. Like example:

 

Trigger = Shoot/Launch, use the touch sensitivity as "First trigger" and pull as "Second trigger".

Grip = Touch = multiplier 1, Pull = Grab

Mini-stick = Trim, + Multiplier 1 = Mini-stick for sensors or 4-way hat etc.

A = Touch Multiplier 2, press Button 1

B = Touch multiplier 3, press Button 2

Touch area = Switch/Multiplier (for the grip example etc)

 

Now there would be possibility get around some of the aircraft functions with just two controllers.

 

 

 

When starting from zero, it is best to just get a good display and then any cheap joystick that has one hat and at least 3 buttons for trigger/thumb use. And then just use the keyboard.

The VR is not worth it if not ready to really go for fully in. 

 

My sentence about loosing tracking is that : the OT (Oculus Touch) have some inner IR LED on it for tracking those via the 4 camera IR on the google. Thus when I turn my head for look at my back for example, the camera loose sigh on my OT and at the moment the jystick on the game return to that initial position. It's more clear ?

[Fri13]

Just now, William said:

My sentence about loosing tracking is that : the OT (Oculus Touch) have some inner IR LED on it for tracking those via the 4 camera IR on the google. Thus when I turn my head for look at my back for example, the camera loose sigh on my OT and at the moment the jystick on the game return to that initial position. It's more clear ?

Ah, now I understand that. Thanks for clarification. Sure, the problem is that the Quest 2 cameras field of view is not so great to sides and to backward.

The Touch Controllers has own gyroscope sensors that are used for limited time period movement registration when the IR leds are not visible. This example allows to take hand behind your head to pull a sword or behind back to do something. But it is just few seconds that period the controllers are allowed to be out of field of view before they are "ignored" and jumps back to field of view when you look at them. 

 

This is one of those problems with the "Inside-Out" tracking systems while the old "Outside-In" allowed to track each device separately, and well if you got them be inside 2-3 sensors field of view. 

 

With the RIft S what I have used the Touch Controllers, I don't have a such problem but it is because Rift S has a side cameras for covering those areas. Still placing hand behind back/head cause blind spot and problems in time similar manner. 

[William]

3 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

Ah, now I understand that. Thanks for clarification. Sure, the problem is that the Quest 2 cameras field of view is not so great to sides and to backward.

The Touch Controllers has own gyroscope sensors that are used for limited time period movement registration when the IR leds are not visible. This example allows to take hand behind your head to pull a sword or behind back to do something. But it is just few seconds that period the controllers are allowed to be out of field of view before they are "ignored" and jumps back to field of view when you look at them. 

 

This is one of those problems with the "Inside-Out" tracking systems while the old "Outside-In" allowed to track each device separately, and well if you got them be inside 2-3 sensors field of view. 

 

With the RIft S what I have used the Touch Controllers, I don't have a such problem but it is because Rift S has a side cameras for covering those areas. Still placing hand behind back/head cause blind spot and problems in time similar manner. 

 

Yes, but I will to invest in HOTAS in futur, thus for the moment is good for me. I know it, I don't look to much on my "back" ...

 

For the command, the Su 25-T have a non clickable cockpit it's a shame because it forces me to use keyboard now, but with yhe help of VoiceAttack maybe I will fly more intuitively

Edited March 18, 2021 by William

[Baldrick33]

This started out as a discussion about immersion and VR and has seemed to focus on cost. For me, having tried it, replacing a hotas with vr controllers reduces immersion much like sim racing without a steering wheel and shifter. The point of a hotas is that you can operate it by feel, so you have controls you don't need to look at but are in your peripheral vision in VR so you move a stick and you see a stick move, as long as it is approximately the right position it works. The physical feeling of moving the stick with a similar resistance or so to the real thing adds to the whole sense of feeling like you are in a plane flying it. Flicking the switches around the cockpit requires a bit more imagination but again if you are pressing a physical button as you look at it then it it feels like you are operating controls. I have ordered PointCTRL and currently use a button box a the left and right mouse clicks and rotary for wheel.

 

For me the mouse and keyboard are the most immersion breaking tools for flying a plane in VR. Operating switches by voice like some modern car's heating controls also doesn't work for me. Matching up physical controls which feel an approximation to the real thing is the key for immersion in VR and I find the immersion from DCS in VR is above and beyond anything out there.

 

I get the desire to use controllers as a cheap option but the combination of near replica controls for the actual flying or driving aspect of sims and VR provide the greatest immersion.

[Fri13]

3 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

This started out as a discussion about immersion and VR and has seemed to focus on cost.

 

3 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

I get the desire to use controllers as a cheap option but the combination of near replica controls for the actual flying or driving aspect of sims and VR provide the greatest immersion.

 

It is cheap solution, but it works great in games that are designed exactly around that, like the VR VTOL. If that game would be available to Quest 2 as standalone, it would be amazing thing. Just take the Quest 2 with you and you have couple hours flight time on any chair that has arms rests. 

For DCS it is just no go and step away from immersive situation. 

[Baldrick33]

15 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

It is cheap solution, but it works great in games that are designed exactly around that, like the VR VTOL. If that game would be available to Quest 2 as standalone, it would be amazing thing. Just take the Quest 2 with you and you have couple hours flight time on any chair that has arms rests. 

For DCS it is just no go and step away from immersive situation. 

Which is fine for a portable solution but compared with a setup designed around replica controllers it comes nowhere near the immersion levels in my experience. Yes, DCS could provide better options for those seeking a VR VTOL type experience but it will always fall short of what can be achieved with decent flight controls and a solution like PointCTRL, VR gloves or even button boxes for operating the rest of the controls, which is where I see the future development in VR

 

One of the great things about flight and driving sims is that we can get pretty close to using the same control devices. Unlike a shooter where we use a controller or mouse to simulate an M1 Garand or use a controller to "play football" in FIFA. It makes for great games in their own right but nothing like simulation.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Baldrick33

[Fri13]

5 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

One of the great things about flight and driving sims is that we can get pretty close to using the same control devices. Unlike a shooter where we use a controller or mouse to simulate an M1 Garand or use a controller to "play football" in FIFA. It makes for great games in their own right but nothing like simulation.

 

Roll back 20 years in time, and HOTAS was not even a word among simulator players

The VR really makes some shooting games far more interesting. But as anyone can guess, one can sit down for hours and play a shooter game, but one can only have so much strength to kneel, raise and turn around constantly until it becomes a exercise instead fun. 

 

People are lazy, the fun needs to be comfortable etc. 

The greatest innovations are made by lazy people. Otherwise we would still be carrying everything as no one would had required to invent a wheel to ease his workload.

Why to run, jump, crouch etc, when you can do all that just with flick of the fingers on gamepad - while laying on the couch? 

 

This is why the flight simulations and driving simulations are the key for VR success, as naturally you are sitting in a chair, you have physical controls in your hand where to rest your arms. You just need to look around etc. And there is no G forces and nothing like that to suffer from. 

Ultimate piloting... 

[StevanJ]

1 hour ago, DutchCoolHand said:

StevanJ,

 

I can agree with your points when you start from zero and have to buy everything. And regarding "It aint for everyone, its hard.. But then so is flying a real plane. If it was as easy as that, we'd all be pilots."

I am private pilot with 430+ hours 

 

 

Really?

Thats cool.

Why fly in VR when you can fly in real life?

[Baldrick33]

1 minute ago, StevanJ said:

Really?

Thats cool.

Why fly in VR when you can fly in real life?

I can drive a car but not necessarily the ones I can in VR, nor the instant access to a race track of choice without fear of expensive repairs or worse!

[StevanJ]

1 hour ago, Baldrick33 said:

This started out as a discussion about immersion and VR and has seemed to focus on cost. For me, having tried it, replacing a hotas with vr controllers reduces immersion much like sim racing without a steering wheel and shifter. The point of a hotas is that you can operate it by feel, so you have controls you don't need to look at but are in your peripheral vision in VR so you move a stick and you see a stick move, as long as it is approximately the right position it works. The physical feeling of moving the stick with a similar resistance or so to the real thing adds to the whole sense of feeling like you are in a plane flying it. Flicking the switches around the cockpit requires a bit more imagination but again if you are pressing a physical button as you look at it then it it feels like you are operating controls. I have ordered PointCTRL and currently use a button box a the left and right mouse clicks and rotary for wheel.

 

For me the mouse and keyboard are the most immersion breaking tools for flying a plane in VR. Operating switches by voice like some modern car's heating controls also doesn't work for me. Matching up physical controls which feel an approximation to the real thing is the key for immersion in VR and I find the immersion from DCS in VR is above and beyond anything out there.

 

I get the desire to use controllers as a cheap option but the combination of near replica controls for the actual flying or driving aspect of sims and VR provide the greatest immersion.

I understand your thoughts, Having been a HOTAS simmer i can understand where youre coming from.
For me, i just cant be bothered to plug in and install the HOTAS again, when i like the feeling of flying with VRTControllers.

I mean- the question was asked, Where do you draw the line? Buy a HOTAS, MFD's, Rudder pedals, Panels, Switchboards, then you get into 'driving sims' and buy a Wheel, Shifter, Pedals..
How long until you have to say 'No, thats the line'?
Would you consider yourself the type of person whose happy to switch all his flight peripherals to racing peripherals just to play a game?
What if you got into Tanks? Wanted to play online and use the Huey? Do you shift your throttle and stick to bring in a Helicopter stick and collective?
Im curious, to where youd draw the line.

[Baldrick33]

2 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

I mean- the question was asked, Where do you draw the line? Buy a HOTAS, MFD's, Rudder pedals, Panels, Switchboards, then you get into 'driving sims' and buy a Wheel, Shifter, Pedals..

The original question was "Will VR ever get improved in terms of controller interactivity and remove the need to use a real Hotas?"

 

In my view removing the HOTAS would not be an improvement, it is as natural as having a steering wheel in a driving sim and synchs perfectly with the rendition of your virtual self portrayed.

 

Everyone has their own line in terms of hardware and software costs for their hobby.

 

Using VR controllers is a cheaper and convenient solution than having some form of pit dedicated to VR flying for sure. I would say the latter is better but whether it is good value or affordable is something only the individual can decide. You only need to see how the military use VR for combat pilot training to see how the HOTAS is deemed essential.

[StevanJ]

6 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

The original question was "Will VR ever get improved in terms of controller interactivity and remove the need to use a real Hotas?"

 

In my view removing the HOTAS would not be an improvement, it is as natural as having a steering wheel in a driving sim and synchs perfectly with the rendition of your virtual self portrayed.

 

Everyone has their own line in terms of hardware and software costs for their hobby.

 

Using VR controllers is a cheaper and convenient solution than having some form of pit dedicated to VR flying for sure. I would say the latter is better but whether it is good value or affordable is something only the individual can decide. You only need to see how the military use VR for combat pilot training to see how the HOTAS is deemed essential.

Okay, cool..
Well with that in mind, Im going to say as an individual, ive found that not having my HOTAS hasnt limited my game in anyway.
So id say that we're probably at the point where a HOTAS isnt needed.

Especially when there is so many different modules to cater for..

[Baldrick33]

3 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

Okay, cool..
Well with that in mind, Im going to say as an individual, ive found that not having my HOTAS hasnt limited my game in anyway.
So id say that we're probably at the point where a HOTAS isnt needed.

Especially when there is so many different modules to cater for..

Ok, in my view the current VR controllers we have fall way short of replacing a HOTAS so I guess we have to agree to disagree

[StevanJ]

6 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

Ok, in my view the current VR controllers we have fall way short of replacing a HOTAS so I guess we have to agree to disagree

Lol, Ive always liked you Baldrick.. Without you there would be no list..
Ill always owe you one for that..

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

In terms or “immersion “. How do address the issue of lack of tactile stimulus when “flying “ without a flight stick in your hands? 
seems to me that if I am holding onto nothingness it

do really matter what I see or hear?  
I get the reach into space and flip a switch on the virtual dash deal I guess, but how is holding an imaginary stick more immersive?  
That said, it should be possible for someone who chooses not to or can’t afford a stick, but certainly not more immersive 

[DutchCoolHand]

1 hour ago, StevanJ said:

Really?

Thats cool.

Why fly in VR when you can fly in real life?

because I can't fly the same planes or dogfight, drop bombs 

[Harlikwin]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

In terms or “immersion “. How do address the issue of lack of tactile stimulus when “flying “ without a flight stick in your hands? 
seems to me that if I am holding onto nothingness it

do really matter what I see or hear?  
I get the reach into space and flip a switch on the virtual dash deal I guess, but how is holding an imaginary stick more immersive?  
That said, it should be possible for someone who chooses not to or can’t afford a stick, but certainly not more immersive 

 

Exactly this...

 

For immersion, the best setup I've found is my G2 reverb, physical sticks and throttles that match the plane (a few other big controls like the gear handle) and then to use point control to click in the pit. A future step up to this will IMO be full on hand tracking but this has a bunch of issues that have not been overcome, and you will have to deal with somehow roughly syncing the physical pit controls with the VR ones. Which is IMO non-trivial in my experience. IMO it will probably end up as some sort of defined, snap-to box/area. The next step will be to have some sort of haptic feedback with those gloves, and then finally have it be good enough fidelity to replace a stick and throttle controller.

 

[StevanJ]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

In terms or “immersion “. How do address the issue of lack of tactile stimulus when “flying “ without a flight stick in your hands? 
seems to me that if I am holding onto nothingness it

do really matter what I see or hear?  
I get the reach into space and flip a switch on the virtual dash deal I guess, but how is holding an imaginary stick more immersive?  
That said, it should be possible for someone who chooses not to or can’t afford a stick, but certainly not more immersive 

Ive said previously, Depending on where the stick is, you get tactile feel from your arm being against what ever it need to be, Huey/FA18 Arms on leg.

F16, arms on arm-rest.

If i need tactile response from the throttle, youll get that from resting your arm on an arm rest, the young guy i fly with rests his throttle arm on his desk while he refuels in the air.
When i 'boot up DCS' I turn 90 degrees right, so my left hand can rest on my desk to use the keyb'.
Same if im away on my laptop. Just find a comfy seat and relax.

This 'not more immersive', its like i said- Try it, if after two weeks, youve mastered it, can air to air refuel- then fine. Its not for you.
But unless you can actually do it, you cant say.
I said the same thing before i started into VRTControllers.
And i feel its way more immersive. Because youre there in the cockpit, you can see your hands moving around, and you know where everything is.
It like the other guys said with HOTAS, sooner or later you have to use a mouse.
Its a line, thats too vague to put a finger on.

There are arguments for both, But ive never met someone who can fly with both 'well' and decide to go back to a HOTAS.
Usually players try it, scream 'this is too hard', and quit.

But I welcome others who can do both and decide to go back to a HOTAS, i just cant- now ive hung up the throttle and moved to VRTC.

2 minutes ago, DutchCoolHand said:

because I can't fly the same planes or dogfight, drop bombs 

Please dont try..

1 minute ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Exactly this...

 

For immersion, the best setup I've found is my G2 reverb, physical sticks and throttles that match the plane (a few other big controls like the gear handle) and then to use point control to click in the pit. A future step up to this will IMO be full on hand tracking but this has a bunch of issues that have not been overcome, and you will have to deal with somehow roughly syncing the physical pit controls with the VR ones. Which is IMO non-trivial in my experience. IMO it will probably end up as some sort of defined, snap-to box/area. The next step will be to have some sort of haptic feedback with those gloves, and then finally have it be good enough fidelity to replace a stick and throttle controller.

 

Just try it for two weeks.
Thats all it takes, youll be happy with a desk without wires, then go back..

Id welcome the trial. And be happy to have the feedback.

[Harlikwin]

23 minutes ago, StevanJ said:

 

Just try it for two weeks.
Thats all it takes, youll be happy with a desk without wires, then go back..

Id welcome the trial. And be happy to have the feedback.

 

Well I did try to do this a while back, frankly I didn't like it. Control inputs just felt "wrong" plus mapping stuff didn't really work for complex A/C.

 

I mean I'm using point control for my mouse, so thats perfectly intuitive. I just need a decent all in one FFB joystick with easily hot-swappable heads.

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Harlikwin

[StevanJ]

14 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Well I did try to do this a while back, frankly I didn't like it. Control inputs just felt "wrong" plus mapping stuff didn't really work for complex A/C.

 

I mean I'm using point control for my mouse, so thats perfectly intuitive. I just need a decent all in one FFB joystick with easily hot-swappable heads.

 

 

Im selling a G940?

[dburne]

What a conversation...