APKWS don't track sometimes

[felixx75]

Hi,

I like the new APKWS for the AV8B, but it seems, that I'm doing something wrong and I have no idea what. Sometimes the rockets track the laser, sometimes not (in the same run, I attack a target and hit it, come back for the next one, and don't hit the new one...). The setup seems to be correct. The lasercodes match, I'm within range, no wild maneuvers right before the launch. 

[Draken35]

I've seen this too...Usually when I fired them under a 3km range they don't track. I think they might have a minimum range

[Hodo]

It is within the minimum range.  It is the same if you drop a laser guided bomb or fire a laser maverick to close.  It won't track at all.  

 

Usually engage withe the rockets out beyond 2.7km.  I prefer a 4km minimum personally because I use them to take out ZSU and AAA emplacements.

[cw4ogden]

Don't know the max range but I just got successful tracking kills from 5.0 nautical miles, assuming that is the unit of measure on the hud distance to target readout.

 

[jib]

I find this happens a lot too after a few runs, I find if I turn the laser off and then on again it  fixes the problem. it is like the laser is auto turning off after a few attack runs but with no indication on the HUD or TGP that that has happened!

[Draken35]

1 hour ago, jib said:

I find this happens a lot too after a few runs, I find if I turn the laser off and then on again it  fixes the problem. it is like the laser is auto turning off after a few attack runs but with no indication on the HUD or TGP that that has happened!

 

This sounds more like a case of laser burnout .. I read somewhere that it was implemented last year

[Bailey]

I have had instances where I launch, turn away (with the target on-screen the entire time) and the rocket misses. I have not had time to review a replay of what happened to the rocket. I am always within about 7 miles during the entire maneuver, firing at 4nm. It’s almost like the laser is shadowed by the aircraft but it’s not being represented via the MFD screen. 

[Fri13]

On 2/8/2021 at 6:29 PM, Draken35 said:

I've seen this too...Usually when I fired them under a 3km range they don't track. I think they might have a minimum range

 

Closer you are, then more accurate you need to be to fire rocket at the laser spot.

Further you are, more you can fire it off-angle.

 

The APKWS II if I remember correctly will have a 2.5 seconds before it is roll stabilized and guiding toward the laser spot.

 

After the launch, at about 50 feet or so the wings are already spring loaded open, but at the launch moment the rocket is set to 10 rotations per second, and unguided rockets accelerate to 30 rotations per seconds to stabilize them.

But APKWS II module will first roll stabilize the rocket and then start guidance. It has instantaneous field of view (IFOV) 40 degrees and it is capable spot the laser spot right away.

 

The fixed wing minimum range is given 2 km, but that is of course about the launch speed dependent. With the rotary wings it is 1.1 km, as it happens at hover or slow speed.

Considering the specs, that likely should be about its maximum turn capability from targeting being 20 degree off-angle. So if you get the rocket anywhere near the laser, it should have easy time to guide there.

 

Now I have seen these rockets to stop guidance at 3-1.5 nmi range. They just don't guide at all but fly ballistic. It requires to re-select them in the weapons panel to get them working again.

 

This doesn't make sense that I can be flying straight at the target at slow speed (by purpose) and fire a rocket and it does fly to about rocket pipper position, then quickly re-select weapon and fire again and they all go to laser, even when laser has been firing all the time and I am now even closer than first salvo was.

 

 

[Draken35]

3 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Now I have seen these rockets to stop guidance at 3-1.5 nmi range. They just don't guide at all but fly ballistic. It requires to re-select them in the weapons panel to get them working again.

 

This doesn't make sense that I can be flying straight at the target at slow speed (by purpose) and fire a rocket and it does fly to about rocket pipper position, then quickly re-select weapon and fire again and they all go to laser, even when laser has been firing all the time and I am now even closer than first salvo was.

 

That's sounds like a bug...  Next time I see that they do not respond to guidance, I'll try reselecting them.

 

I used the APKWS last night in one range session... 28 launches, 27 hits , The miss was caused for a faulty hotas/chair interface....  I forgot to fire the laser on that one ...

 

I was testing some changes to my HOTAS setup: mapped the TPOD zoom and laser fire MFD buttons to my HOTAS. Also mapped the IRMAV FOV toggle ... This allow me to fire laser guided weapons & IRMAV without taking my hands off the stick & throttle.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Draken35

[cw4ogden]

Can not rule out user error, but I have seen this as well.  What should be a perfect setup, 3-5 nm pipper on the target, lasing target actively.  But the shot just misses by a wide mark.  Like it's unguided.

 

One thing I learned just recently is either have an actual point track or use area track.  Having point track selected and not achieving a point track, the laser seems to not fire.

Edited February 12, 2021 by cw4ogden

[Longiron]

16 hours ago, Draken35 said:

 

 

I was testing some changes to my HOTAS setup: mapped the TPOD zoom and laser fire MFD buttons to my HOTAS. Also mapped the IRMAV FOV toggle ... This allow me to fire laser guided weapons & IRMAV without taking my hands off the stick & throttle.

 

That's the first thing I did. 

Hard to believe they didn't have HOTAS for those in the jet., those guys must have had three arms. 

 

As a side note, I've had good results using INS on the pod for laser rocket. 

Just one tap of undesignate, also prevents gimbal snaps on the run in.

Also in INS tracking the LTIP ranging will latch for better bomb solutions. 

[Fri13]

23 hours ago, cw4ogden said:

One thing I learned just recently is either have an actual point track or use area track.  Having point track selected and not achieving a point track, the laser seems to not fire.

 

That seems odd, as then AGM-65E shouldn't be possible be locked and shot...

 

 

[Fri13]

11 hours ago, Longiron said:

That's the first thing I did. 

Hard to believe they didn't have HOTAS for those in the jet., those guys must have had three arms.

 

Many pilots praises Harrier for its user interface, even saying it is better than what a F-35 does have (and including A-10 as well).

If you think about it, the laser firing is good to be behind a safety feature, but it is as well little odd that one can't fire laser from the trigger like example in a Hornet.

 

Considering that when Harrier pilot is firing these laser guided weapons, he is using a A-G Master Mode to do so. That means the trigger is solely used for a Gun, Sidewinders and AGM-122 Sidearm. Gun and Sidearms needs to be selected from the display, no other way to get it for A-G use. And Sidewinder is selected with the A/A mode hat in stick under thumb, and there you can select the GUN in A-A mode as well.

 But when one is in A-G mode, it would have made sense that trigger would fire the laser like in a Hornet. Then use the release button to launch missiles, rockets and release bombs.

 Having the laser button on the TPOD display is not a problem, it is easy to press. Much easier than flipping Hornet LTD/R switch on the right panel, and then remembering to use the proper trigger latching mode etc. But considering that in Hornet the laser will automatically fire at proper time for bombs, one just needs to remember to flip the LTD/R switch before release.

 

What comes to IRMAV FOV mode, that is already the NWS/Undesignate button. When you switch to IRMAV mode in TPOD (SSS Up Long) then you can use NWS button as it does nothing to IRMAV seeker or system target point. The Uncage button in the throttle is the important button, as well the release button to reset lock mechanism if lock is unsuccessful (and crosshair enlarges to edges).

 

And the digital zoom is currently useful in DCS as it is unrealistically high resolution. It works like a optical zoom. What we had was a Litening II 1st generation pod from 1996. That was suppose to be 256x256 FLIR and CCD, with Narrow FOV and Wide FOV, with capability to have a 6x digital zoom. So at max 6x digital zoom your resolution for the target would have been 256/6=42, so 42x42 pixels blob. You can't really use that for anything.

Now we are suppose to have a Litening G4, so the 4th generation pod.

https://defense-update.com/20111022_litening_g4_atp-se.html

It should have 1000x1000 resolution for FLIR and CCD, so actually being similar to what we have now in DCS. But this comes with 16x digital zoom, that is again blurring more. But at maximum digital zoom it is 62x62 resolution that we are looking for. Mushy, mushy and very mushy....

 

To get the TPOD for inertial tracking, you need to use SSS Aft for longer than 0.8 seconds. Then you will switch from PT, MT or Area track to Inertial Tracking. If you press Undesignate while you have TPOD as designator, then you will clear the TD from the system. To perform the LTIP you press SSS less than 0.8 seconds.

 

Quote

Another new feature is the ‘Laser Target Imaging Program’ (LTIP), employing a short wave infrared (SWIR) laser augmented imaging, to enhance the targeting system’s capability to capture images in situations where medium-wave infrared (MWIR) forward-looking infrared and CCD are ineffective.

 

So simply put, improve the capability capture images in challenging conditions.

[cw4ogden]

22 hours ago, Fri13 said:

That seems odd, as then AGM-65E shouldn't be possible be locked and shot...

 

I could be mistaken, I'll test it again.  

 

Edit: Yes, you are correct.  Not sure what I saw the other day.

Edited February 14, 2021 by cw4ogden

[Fri13]

On 2/12/2021 at 1:53 PM, Draken35 said:

 

That's sounds like a bug...  Next time I see that they do not respond to guidance, I'll try reselecting them.

 

 

 

Have you come by situation to try that re-selection of the rockets if it fixes the unguided rockets?

[Draken35]

 

  

4 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

 

Have you come by situation to try that re-selection of the rockets if it fixes the unguided rockets?

 

Negative...  They have been behaving properly as of late.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Draken35