Gun on the Shark?

[RedTiger]

Velocity of the projectile only matters for kinetic penetrators, the explosive speed of a hollow charge is likely in the regions of 8000m/s

 

Heh, thats true. The PIAT, for all its short-comings, used a spring-loaded shaped charge.

[Yellonet]

But thats just the speed of the shockwave that travels through the explosive, the parts that fly outwards are much slower IIRC.

That's probably true, but I still think that the speed of the projectile doesn't account for much of the delivered energy when explosives are used. Then again, it's may as much be the extreme heat of the formed penetrator that does the damage as it's high speed. Edited August 27, 2008 by Yellonet

[cool_t]

... Because a 120mm round which the tank fends off on the front armor is weaker than the 30mm eh? :D

 

No, I don't think I'm wrong on this one. The energy imparted from a 30mm round will pretty much always be lower than a main gun of a tank, being a 120mm HEAT, or 120mm KE ;)

 

It might shred TOP armor, and back armor, but not front.

 

Right, GG....."A 30mm round" hows about 20 or 100 of them hitting the front of the tank with EFP in the 30mm rounds. They will go right into 4 inch armor plating reguardless of armor angle.

[GGTharos]

The M1A1's front armor against chemical (aka EFP) penetrators is the equivalent of 500+ inches of armor. You can shoot your 30mm EFP's at it /all day long/ and nothing will happen.

[CAT_101st]

this is how you figure the power factor of a bullet.

 

(bullet weight) X (muzzle velocity)= (power factor)

 

here is a example

 

nato .308

 

168g X 2700fps = 453,600PF (to semplfy the PF devide by 1000)= 453.6

 

I shoot custom rounds for long rang. some times slower is more acurate.

This round I hit human size target at 800yards

168g X 2560fps = 430.080 / 1000 = 430.08 PF

 

50BMG

 

780g X 2850fps = 2,223,000 / 1000 = 2,223 PF

 

now this is with a standard NATO round and not HE or AP round. The HE round is not desined to gou thrue armor as the AP round is. So you can see how the velocity and weight can affect the power of a round just buy weight or veliocity.

[cool_t]

The M1A1's front armor against chemical (aka EFP) penetrators is the equivalent of 500+ inches of armor. You can shoot your 30mm EFP's at it /all day long/ and nothing will happen.

 

Since when is super heated copper a chemical? There are many forms of the EFP but I will still disagree with you on this G.G.

[GGTharos]

Any HEAT warhead (including EFP) is called a chemical warhead in terms of armored combat. Its power is derived from chemical reaction shaping the projectile, that's why - as opposed to kinetic penetrators (ie. what you'd call AP).

 

You can disagree with me all you want, but it's the same as shooting steel plate with BBs.

 

Since when is super heated copper a chemical? There are many forms of the EFP but I will still disagree with you on this G.G.

[RedTiger]

Since when is super heated copper a chemical? There are many forms of the EFP but I will still disagree with you on this G.G.

 

I can agree with you on a very, very, very basic level...projectile size and velocity is not as important when dealing with chemical penetrators. And FYI, there are basically 3 types of AT weapons (GGTharos beat me to it! :mad: ); kinetic, chemical and...whatever you call HESH. :D A shaped charge (AKA "super heated copper) falls under the category of a chemical penetrator.

 

I highly doubt anything such as this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_formed_penetrator

 

...could penetrate even reactive armors. Do you have anything to back that up? The day such a thing becomes deadly to tanks is the day we start putting 120mm guns on aluminium cans because, hey, what use is all that armor? ;)

[nscode]

The M1A1's front armor against chemical (aka EFP) penetrators is the equivalent of 500+ inches of armor. You can shoot your 30mm EFP's at it /all day long/ and nothing will happen.

 

nothing except all sensors being destroyed, turning it into a nicely fortified bucket

[GGTharos]

That's why you have the GAS ;)

[AlphaOneSix]

The 2A42 doesn't fire EFP ammunition. In fact, I'm wondering which 30mm autocannons do fire EFP rounds.

 

The 2A42 has no chance of defeating the frontal armor of virtually any modern main battle tank. At all.

[nscode]

That's why you have the GAS ;)

 

yeah, you better have enough gas ;) to run home... if your tracks are still on

[monotwix]

O my the aviation has gone to bits.

Which one could be bothered to go as far as showing the thermo kinetic energy pics and effects of depleted uranium mass or the working principal behind tungsten caps.

No one so far, and so the crush principal remains the same.

[Mugatu]

Yes and you'd be a brave pilot to starting tapping away at a modern tank with your cannon, I'd be pulling hard on the collective and pushing the nose over as soon as the turret started to swivel in your direction. :)

 

 

The 2A42 doesn't fire EFP ammunition. In fact, I'm wondering which 30mm autocannons do fire EFP rounds.

 

The 2A42 has no chance of defeating the frontal armor of virtually any modern main battle tank. At all.

[cool_t]

The 2A42 doesn't fire EFP ammunition. In fact, I'm wondering which 30mm autocannons do fire EFP rounds.

 

The 2A42 has no chance of defeating the frontal armor of virtually any modern main battle tank. At all.

 

Im still at a loss with the unknow factor here about 30mm EFP rounds. EFPs' and there potential to kill are like a battlefield standard these days, weather or not they are manufactured by a munitions factory or made a basement.

 

There must be some sort of documentation out there or perhaps the information is just classified. The non-existance of 30mm EFP rounds would be almost as unconvincing as the linitations of the gun movement on the KA-50. Some RPGs have EFP rounds which can take out the front armor of any modern battle tank, there are pictures out there of the small hole it leaves in the armor. The question being is why would there not be 30mm EFP rounds on an helo?

[Yellonet]

Im still at a loss with the unknow factor here about 30mm EFP rounds. EFPs' and there potential to kill are like a battlefield standard these days, weather or not they are manufactured by a munitions factory or made a basement.

 

There must be some sort of documentation out there or perhaps the information is just classified. The non-existance of 30mm EFP rounds would be almost as unconvincing as the linitations of the gun movement on the KA-50. Some RPGs have EFP rounds which can take out the front armor of any modern battle tank, there are pictures out there of the small hole it leaves in the armor. The question being is why would there not be 30mm EFP rounds on an helo?

I think you got it wrong, EFP charges are often stationary weapons that are fired at the target while it passes by, they're also used in top attack weapons that fly over the target and fire the EFP down towards the weak top armor. I'm not aware of any regular canon round that uses EFP to peirce armor.

Hollow charges which create a metel jet stream however is common in AP rounds, it's not the same as an EFP.

 

And while hollow charges can penetrate quite a large amount of armor compared to their size, somewhere about 150-250% of the warhead diameter. When you consider this you realize that a 30mm shaped charge will not penetrate the front armor of a modern tank.

 

Also, an EFP charge I read about had 1.5 kg exlosives and can engage targets from 5-100 meters away and penetrate 60mm armor. So if such a big EFP weapon can only go through 60mm... what would a small 30mm round do?

[sobek]

As yellownet already stated, the point of EFP is to create a projectile of the liner that can travel significant distances compared to hollow charges, whose matel jets stay focused only over small distances. There would be no sense in building a projectile that fires another projectile (except to hit the top armor, still i doubt that an EFP fired out of a 30mm round would be able to penetrate even top armor).

 

Wikipedia describes the difference between EFP and hollow charges quite well, you might want to check that out.

Edited August 28, 2008 by sobek

[GGTharos]

Im still at a loss with the unknow factor here about 30mm EFP rounds. EFPs' and there potential to kill are like a battlefield standard these days, weather or not they are manufactured by a munitions factory or made a basement.

 

What unknown factor? Do you even know what an EFP is? The maverick, hellfire, nearly any RPG out there is pretty much a HEAT warhead - there are some versions of the TOW which fire an EFP into the TOP of their target where the armor is fairly thin. It does so from a distance of maybe two meters.

 

There must be some sort of documentation out there or perhaps the information is just classified.

No, it really isn't classified all that much, and yeah, the documentation is out there. Look up 'HEAT warhead' ... practically the same on principle, different operation in actuality as mentioned above.

 

The non-existance of 30mm EFP rounds would be almost as unconvincing as the linitations of the gun movement on the KA-50. Some RPGs have EFP rounds which can take out the front armor of any modern battle tank,

That's so wrong it's not even funny. An EFP has penetration more or less equivalent to its diameter in RHA. Tank armor is MUCH thicker in RHA than that.

 

there are pictures out there of the small hole it leaves in the armor. The question being is why would there not be 30mm EFP rounds on an helo?

Because 30mm of penetration isn't enough - and that's if the EFP is 'full caliber'. Further, 30mm EFP is pretty useless when you can use 30mm frag against personnel or API vs. light skinned vehicles and APCs.

 

As for the pictures - yes, there are plenty of them, and you'll be very hard pressed to find an actual front armor penetration ... just about all of them are side or rear penetrations.

Edited August 28, 2008 by GGTharos

[Teknetinium]

Don't think it can penetrate new tanks from no where,it can definitely do more damage and has more range then any gun/cannon attached to any attack chopper out there.

then again my speculations are that 30mm cannon cold be inaccurate on a chopper.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Teknetium

[GGTharos]

Well the question is 'accurate for what purpose?'

 

If you can hit a tank-sized target with 80% of the rounds at 2km I'd call that accurate :D

 

then again my speculations are that 30mm cannon cold be inaccurate on a chopper.

[cool_t]

What unknown factor? Do you even know what an EFP is?

That's so wrong it's not even funny. An EFP has penetration more or less equivalent to its diameter in RHA. Tank armor is MUCH thicker in RHA than that.

 

Because 30mm of penetration isn't enough - and that's if the EFP is 'full caliber'. Further, 30mm EFP is pretty useless when you can use 30mm frag against personnel or API vs. light skinned vehicles and APCs.

 

.

 

1. EFP/any size/RPG/Missile/Cannon/Granade?

 

2. 1,2,3, or 4...ect...ect... stage?

 

http://www.janes.com/extracts/extract/jeod/jeoda032.html

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/bullets2-shaped-charge.htm

 

 

The question still incontext is Whats up with the gun placement on the KA-50?

[Peyoteros]

The answer is still the same, - It's technological advantage...

[cool_t]

The answer is still the same, - It's technological advantage...

 

I will buy that, but..... Any one have some combat footage? It would be nice to see some PILOT LOGS of actual combat and or feedback from KA-50 pilots.

 

:book:?

[Esac_mirmidon]

Here you are. Not combat fotage, but a nice real action report.

 

Ka-50 in Chechnya

[hitman]

You know what would be a tactical advantage? Attaching a recoilless rifle of a rediculously oversized caliber round that can shoot treads off of tanks 10km away. This wont be too far off now that they are perfecting the rail gun technology.