Notching AIM-120C [R-77], but still a hit

[skywalker22]

Not really sure if this is a bug, but still would like some clarification.

I was almost all the time in a pure notch (my Su-27 was at 90degrees to it), except on the end when hit me.

Is this ok?

 

TOP VIEW:

 

SIDE VIEW: Its not a pure notch, but still would love to hear some explanation.

Was even in worse kind position and avoided a missile successfully.

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by mitja_bonca

[CAPT_Kirkpatrick]

Can you post the Tac view file?

 

Looking at the top down, it looks like you do notch the missile, but in the last few seconds exit while still right inside the seeker cone, causing the missile to correct slightly right for you.

I cant say for sure that's what happened, but I'd love to take a peek at the tacView to confirm it.

[GGTharos]

You're either in the notch, or you're not, and at close ranges the notch is tighter.  You quite simply failed to notch.

[dundun92]

You werent in the notch. Use the relative bearing tool to measure the exact angle, and youll find you were not in the notch.

Also, IMO, you're using the wrong method to notch in the Su-27. Your attempting to accurately hold a notch, and do it without chaff. That simply doesnt work in the Su-27 with your limited sensors, and notching without chaff like that reallly shouldnt be a thing period, it only works in blue jets because of their insanely (and unrealistically) accurate RWRs. I made a video on how I notch in the 27 (and really to some extent all jets), but TLDR I dont try and stay in the notch/be super accurate, I drop chaff while turning through the notch, and that works very well to defeat it with the current AMRAAM chaff/notch mechanics, much more than trying to hold an accurate notch:

 

[TAW_Blaze]

You need the line of sight vector at 90 degrees, not the missile flight path. You're nowhere near a notch.

[Cmptohocah]

One thing I always wondered: does a Doppler radar need any shift in frequency to track a target against a clear background, like the sky for example?

[GGTharos]

Yes, but it may also be possible to remove the filter in such circumstances.  Does that actually happen?  We don't know.

[skywalker22]

Here you go, my tacview from just now, how to notch aim120s and aim9

I wouldn˙t agree with you that RWR is not important, its VERY important, even if its made for kids. But you need to pay a huge attention while starting turning into notch and watching lights go lit one after another to achieve the "perfect" notch.

Another thing, tell me why those missiles in all 3 examples did`t hit me, while I didn`t notch them? Specially AIM-120C. Some went stupid as hell, don`t even know what they were looking for.

Tacview-Su27_vs_F15_BWR_1.zip.acmi

Edited April 26, 2021 by mitja_bonca

[skywalker22]

And another one:

Tacview-Su27_vs_F15_BWR_2.zip.acmi

[skywalker22]

And a 3rd round:

 Tacview-Su27_vs_F15_BWR_3.zip.acmi

Edited April 26, 2021 by mitja_bonca

[Noctrach]

The short answer is his shot parameters were absolutely terrible and chaff right now is a bit of a joke.

20 miles is pushing it at 25,000 feet let alone 8,000. Missile was literally falling out of the sky before even reaching you.

 

None of this is notching, take the advice of @dundun92 and @104th_Blaze and verify that your relative bearing (Combat/3D) towards the missile maintains a steady near-90 degrees.

 

Also heatseekers like the AIM-9 cannot be notched and are easiest to decoy by turning INTO the missile while rolling engines idle and dropping flares.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Noctrach

[dundun92]

3 hours ago, mitja_bonca said:

I wouldn˙t agree with you that RWR is not important, its VERY important, even if its made for kids.

Its not important. At all. I can notch in the Su-27 with an SPO-10, because quite simply, 15° or w/e the accuracy is useless for any sort of accurate notching. You're fooling yourself if you think you cna hold the perfect notch with the 27s RWR.

 

Looking at the tacviews, its either the AMRAAM ran out of energy, or it just went after the chaff from like 5-10 degrees outside the notch; it only works that well in SP, in MP its much harder to chaff, specifically far outside the notch like here. Try this in MP with a buddy that knows how to employ AMRAAMs and I can assure you its not gonna work that well.

[nighthawk2174]

4 hours ago, mitja_bonca said:

Here you go, my tacview from just now, how to notch aim120s and aim9

I wouldn˙t agree with you that RWR is not important, its VERY important, even if its made for kids. But you need to pay a huge attention while starting turning into notch and watching lights go lit one after another to achieve the "perfect" notch.

Another thing, tell me why those missiles in all 3 examples did`t hit me, while I didn`t notch them? Specially AIM-120C. Some went stupid as hell, don`t even know what they were looking for.

Tacview-Su27_vs_F15_BWR_1.zip.acmi 277.36 kB · 3 downloads

 

You didn't notch them (watched all 3) the closure rate between the relative radial speeds were always above the notch filter (its somewhere in the 20-50kt region in DCS).  It is hard to notch them because this is a 3D problem and the new guidance and the way it works (APN) you will generally see some offset which will make notching almost impossible.  

[Cmptohocah]

7 hours ago, Noctrach said:

...

 

Also heatseekers like the AIM-9 cannot be notched and are easiest to decoy by turning INTO the missile while rolling engines idle and dropping flares.

 

From what I know, IR seekers in DCS see only three possible states:

1. engine/s OFF

2. engine/s ON

3. afterburner/s ON

 

This means that practically there is no difference between idle and full military power when it comes to IR tracking in DCS.

[skywalker22]

What about this two, watch closely the 3rd AIM120, I think I cannot be in any better notch position. Strange thing is, I can beat them with way less notch then this one, but now I got splashed. HEY, that I don`t forget, its still just the game.

Tacview-Su27_vs_FA18_BWR_1.zip.acmi

Tacview-Su27_vs_FA18_BWR_2.zip.acmi

Edited April 27, 2021 by mitja_bonca

[nighthawk2174]

10 hours ago, mitja_bonca said:

What about this two, watch closely the 3rd AIM120, I think I cannot be in any better notch position. Strange thing is, I can beat them with way less notch then this one, but now I got splashed. HEY, that I don`t forget, its still just the game.

Tacview-Su27_vs_FA18_BWR_1.zip.acmi 93.96 kB · 2 downloads

Tacview-Su27_vs_FA18_BWR_2.zip.acmi 82.51 kB · 2 downloads

 

Still though after watching all of the missiles that didn't get chaffed or INS bugged tracked because you never fell into the doppler notch, the apparent closure rate remained outside of this region.  Notching the new missiles is not an easy task, as it should be, because of their new guidance.  It makes it quite hard to get them into a position where they get notched simply by just putting them on your 3/9 line.

Edited April 27, 2021 by nighthawk2174

[dundun92]

10 hours ago, mitja_bonca said:

What about this two, watch closely the 3rd AIM120, I think I cannot be in any better notch position. Strange thing is, I can beat them with way less notch then this one, but now I got splashed. HEY, that I don`t forget, its still just the game.

Tacview-Su27_vs_FA18_BWR_1.zip.acmi 93.96 kB · 4 downloads

Tacview-Su27_vs_FA18_BWR_2.zip.acmi 82.51 kB · 3 downloads

 

you were 5° outside the notch:

[GGTharos]

17 hours ago, mitja_bonca said:

What about this two, watch closely the 3rd AIM120, I think I cannot be in any better notch position. Strange thing is, I can beat them with way less notch then this one, but now I got splashed. HEY, that I don`t forget, its still just the game.

 

You're not in a good notch situation at all.   You're almost 6 degrees out, and the faster you go, the less margin you get.  The missile is close, which also means the notch is much tighter now.   Likewise, although DCS does not simulate this - you're not in a look-down clutter situation.  For DCS if the altitude is lower, it treats it as look-down but that's not really correct.

 

Time to practice some last-ditch orthogonal rolls and stop relying purely on the notch.

[skywalker22]

6 hours ago, GGTharos said:

Time to practice some last-ditch orthogonal rolls and stop relying purely on the notch.

 

  Tried that in the past, but I doubt it will work against AIM120 traverling at mach+, specially not from a side (3/9 o`clock). If it would be from the front, it would make sence, evading it with a barrel roll:

 

 

Yes, its so damn hard to keep the good notch, specially if you are trying to evade the 3rd missile shot on your ass   I doubt I would ever try that IRL.

Edited April 28, 2021 by mitja_bonca

[GGTharos]

It should not work with any head on or tail-on barrel roll.  Only with an orthogonal roll, the purpose of which is to simulate defeating the seeker and fuze through effects which aren't modeled in DCS - but even then DCS especially in MP has its own things that help with it.  It's also not guaranteed to succeed which is why it's called a last ditch defense

 

But well, we're playing a game so use what it gives you

Edited April 28, 2021 by GGTharos

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

On 4/25/2021 at 8:52 PM, dundun92 said:

You werent in the notch. Use the relative bearing tool to measure the exact angle, and youll find you were not in the notch.

Also, IMO, you're using the wrong method to notch in the Su-27. Your attempting to accurately hold a notch, and do it without chaff. That simply doesnt work in the Su-27 with your limited sensors, and notching without chaff like that reallly shouldnt be a thing period, it only works in blue jets because of their insanely (and unrealistically) accurate RWRs. I made a video on how I notch in the 27 (and really to some extent all jets), but TLDR I dont try and stay in the notch/be super accurate, I drop chaff while turning through the notch, and that works very well to defeat it with the current AMRAAM chaff/notch mechanics, much more than trying to hold an accurate notch:

 

Am i reading this right ? You're using a macro to spam chaff ? 
:facepalm: 

[GGTharos]

^^^^

Not sure what you want to complain about, everyone's programmed their sticks to dump a bunch of chaff per press since LOMAC had come out 15 years ago.  The only reaction you'll get here will be people rolling their eyes at you.

Edited May 1, 2021 by GGTharos

[dundun92]

1 hour ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Am i reading this right ? You're using a macro to spam chaff ?

Yep thats right, I am indeed using a macro to drop chaff, you think pilots IRL drop 1 chaff at a time?

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

Never even occured to me to be honest GGtharos. 
To use macro's to do stuff you can't physically do is kind of pathetic , at least that's what i've always been taught (it's...well... cheating)

I am very disappoint in flight sim community integrity if what you say is true GGtharos, but i also find it quite funny so i won't b^tch about it  
 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Csgo GE oh yeah

[Svend_Dellepude]

38 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

 
...To use macro's to do stuff you can't physically do ...

 

 

 

So you don't think any of the FC3 planes has cms programs IRL?