AOA and the Hornet

[Stearmandriver]

8 minutes ago, Brun said:

 

The importance of AOA with regards to *carrier-based aircraft* is to maximise the chances of the arresting gear working as intended. That's the special case.

 

I'm no aviator, but does the following hold true?

 

Naval: Glideslope > AOA > Airspeed

 

AF/CA/GA: Glideslope > Airspeed > AOA

 

Or in other words, a naval aircraft's approach speed will vary by virtue of AOA being the primary concern. In the other cases, AOA will vary depending on target airspeed.

 

Not exactly.   You're correct that AoA holds special importance in carrier aviation because touchdown attitude is critical (as far as I understand), but AoA is also the critical parameter you're controlling on approach in any other aircraft.  It's just that the convention is to use airspeed as a proxy indication of AoA.  A given Vref is calculated based on weight and CG, and these things are estimates, not always known precisely.  Thus, a Vref speed can be considered to yield *roughly* the correct AoA..  but why not just fly AoA directly, and therefore always be *precisely* on the correct AoA?  That's the entire thing you're trying to achieve... Airspeed *does not matter*.  Only AoA actually matters. 

 

There's an AoA indicator in our HUDs at work.  It's so much simpler to fly than speed. 

[ruddy122]

All I’m saying is people over control a plane

From an F/A-18 to an F-16 to a KC-10 to a C152

Overcontrolling doesn’t help you in fact the plane is angrier because of it

You have to be aggressive yes but to throw your controls Willy nilly is does not make things easier

I used to teach an aggressiveness to flying from landings to air refuelings you need a light but positive touch

You have to be able to have that spectrum

I really don’t care what style of flying you have as long as you come back safely


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[randomTOTEN]

24 minutes ago, ruddy122 said:

All I’m saying is people over control a plane

AOA and the Hornet

that's the title of your thread.

your OP recommends people not focus on AOA when landing the Hornet "Don't chase AOA..."

I can get the sentiment you're trying to share here, but a lot of us believe that telling inexperienced players to not "chase" AOA is really setting them up for failure. Especially when this airplane is really optimized for it. Telling them to not work the throttles, and instead wait for "ATC to get resolved." They need to learn to work the throttles, they need to learn to control AOA. They need encouragement for success, not a dismissal which could set them up for a bolter or turning the Hornet into a brick.

I remember getting behind the curve and falling out of the sky just like I'm sure a lot of people did. It's part of the experience of flying this thing. Flying it right.

[ruddy122]

I agree

Learn the right way

Know what the plane can do and how to get yourself out of a bad spot

Don’t assume automation will save the day you earned those wings of gold or silver for a reason

You have to scare yourself once in a while to get the point across

My apologies for oversimplifying we are saying the same thing not eloquently enough


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stearmandriver]

Absolutely.  There's a large difference between flying precisely, and overcontrolling.  The first is mandatory... and the second will make the first impossible. 

[TimRobertsen]

Unless one is constantly making pitch-trim changes (which is not necessary once AoA is "locked in"), thinking about/or considering AoA and airspeed during an approach is really not necessary.

The only real issue is throttle-overcorrection: if you get into a feedback-loop where you have to correct your last correction. But with some practice this isn't much of an issue either

As far as becoming unstable, I dont know man, the Hornet is pretty damn stable Once it is configured for landing (flaps and AoA "locked in") you have to work really really hard, with deliberate intent, to crash it 

[HILOK]

1 hour ago, TimRobertsen said:

Unless one is constantly making pitch-trim changes (which is not necessary once AoA is "locked in"), thinking about/or considering AoA and airspeed during an approach is really not necessary.

The only real issue is throttle-overcorrection: if you get into a feedback-loop where you have to correct your last correction. But with some practice this isn't much of an issue either

As far as becoming unstable, I dont know man, the Hornet is pretty damn stable Once it is configured for landing (flaps and AoA "locked in") you have to work really really hard, with deliberate intent, to crash it 

absolutely agree with this. still i think the reason for throttle overcorrection comes from incorrect engine spool times, as stated here: 

 

[TimRobertsen]

2 hours ago, HILOK said:

absolutely agree with this. still i think the reason for throttle overcorrection comes from incorrect engine spool times, as stated here: 

 

Jupp, spool-time and turbulence is what can throw an approach off.

Especially if the Hornet is light weight; strong wind and turbulence can quickly turn a good groove in to a wave-off 

[ruddy122]

The F/A-18 is super stable

You trim and the Hornet is super stable on approach

Gonna try landing on the boat now that I figured out AOA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pieterras]

Hi @ruddy122

 

I noticed a few of your posts lately, and I am sure they are with the best of intentions, but I have no idea what point you are actually trying to make. For now I have seen nothing else but some very wrong statements or some very obvious basic airmanship things as. 
it is good to be accurate and not good to overcorrect. Maybe captain obvious would be a great callsign. 
 

but no idea what this even means. 
- let AOA come to you? 
- use the stick until the throttle has caught up? 
- a rock is more aerodynamic then the F18 for that speed? 
And actually you write you teach flying and many people overcorrect irl, followed by I have AOA sorted now and will focus on carrier landings. Do you actually fly a real aircraft, because none of what you’re saying makes much sense to me, and I have flown an aircraft once or twice. 

 

AOA and speed are two different variables and are ofcourse related. Fighters fly AOA and this will to keep them in a constant state of energy or make them aware of their actual energy state. The hornet in particular has the hook on a specific angle bases on optimum AOA for obvious reasons and wanschapen to achieve a constant attitude. There is a very good reason why fighters fly AOA over airspeed. In general, fighters operate more often at the extremes of the envelope, often flying at maximum lift for minimum radius turns. For other applications, AOA minimizes the pilot (usually single-place) workload by giving a simple target to fly. AOA is accurate enough for these applications. In addition, the higher sweep and lower aspect ratio of the wing reduce the sensitivity to AOA errors. Both a commercial plan struggles with.

 

AOA has proved particularly useful for approach to aircraft carriers, where it is important to maintain a consistent approach attitude for each landing. In this case, backside approach techniques are used, where glide path is controlled primarily by changes in thrust while the aircraft is held at a fixed AOA.
 

@Steaemandriver  @Bunny Clark

 

Use of this technique during approach on commercial jet airplanes would be contrary to the pitch commands provided by the flight director bars, and to the speed hold mode of the autothrottle, which is often used during approach. In a commercial plan you can see your AOA pretty clearly as it is roughly the difference between your Flight Path Vector and your pitch indication. 
 

 

.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Pieterras

[ruddy122]

My attempt at Sarcasm and Humor

But seriously here goes

Stress Anticipation and Knowledge of what your module will do

I’ve seen a lot of over control particular to flying set your attitude trim it out if you can and then work the throttle. The Hornet is very AOA centric and extremely stable on approach

What new pilots and DCS pilots tend to do is large throttle extremes to get the perfect AOA which destabilizes you

In real life engines take time to spool up. Even if the F404 timing gets fixed there is still a lag. Keeping that power change to a minimum reduces that lag but it’s still there

Big thing is not to over control and know what your module can do


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ruddy122]

Also I almost forgot in DCS below 130 knots on your HUD you have to be real aggressive with your throttle inputs

Not impossible but below 130 you are pushing the module to a low energy state the best way to correct is power but the engines take time to spool up

If your that slow know it and know excessive stick inputs may lead you to stall the module

There is no magic solution just know what your module does


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skysurfer]

Tell me more about how throttle controls AOA. I advise you look up the definition of AOA. 

[ruddy122]

Throttle is weird
Looking at you tube says that once you get the perfect AOA the throttle moves your AOA up and down is that true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We were taught in the KC-10 Vref I know API and VT-10 touched on AOA looking at that again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ruddy122]

Kingsville and Meridian teach AOA in fighters


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Swift.]

21 minutes ago, ruddy122 said:

Throttle is weird
Looking at you tube says that once you get the perfect AOA the throttle moves your AOA up and down is that true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We were taught in the KC-10 Vref I know API and VT-10 touched on AOA looking at that again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is not correct for Hornet.

[ruddy122]

I’m all ears

All the you tube videos say throttle control for AOA

If I’m doing it wrong than the you tube videos need updating


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Using throttle gets me in a bind


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I usually set pitch and hold a good approach attitude and then use my throttle to keep stable


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Swift.]

7 minutes ago, ruddy122 said:

I’m all ears

All the you tube videos say throttle control for AOA

If I’m doing it wrong than the you tube videos need updating


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Using throttle gets me in a bind


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I usually set pitch and hold a good approach attitude and then use my throttle to keep stable


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forward and aft movements of the stick in hornet with flaps in half or full will decrease or increase the AOA respectively. That's not a by-product, that's directly what the FCS is driving. 

 

This means trim can be used to put the aircraft on speed and it will stay there provided no longitudinal stick is used.

 

Increasing throttle will cause more speed, making the nose rise for the same AOA, and decreasing vice versa.

 

From this the technique is to trim the aircraft so that it's flying on speed (8.2 AOA) then use an increasing decreasing motion of the throttle ('walking' or jockeying) to control the velocity vector.

 

Because jet engines take a while to spool up and down, you will find yourself having to over power then under power over and over to maintain a steady flight path.

[=4c=Nikola]

Pro tip: Do not believe everything you see on YT.

 

On a traditional stable platform without FBW, throttle has influence on AoA. 

On F-18, control law allows AoA to wiggle a little bit with throttle inputs.

Edited May 8, 2021 by =4c=Nikola

[ruddy122]

That explains a lot

It makes sense when Chuck’s guide and the early access say don’t fight the FBW


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So I’m fighting the FBW but I don’t know it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ruddy122]

There was a piece I kept overlooking but vitally important

Thanks

It is set yourself up for the perfect AOA attitude and use your throttle to hold it

Be careful of the engine spool up


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ruddy122]

I’m doing that but unconsciously but that is an important concept

I stopped being an instructor when I read high speed boom behind a 135 at night and 12 inches away and my student was crying

There’s no crying while flying I’m not gonna fail you just look at me for a plug and just hang on for 1 second

She hung on for 10 minutes she relaxed and got the job done

I was so proud

She needed that release to be a better pilot after that she was rock solid


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pieterras]

Man, you are about to make me cry... 

 

Use throttle to hold AOA? Once you trimmed the aircraft for on speed. Whatever you do it will always go back to that AOA. It might take a while for it to neutralize it’s deviations but it will go back to the AOA it was trimmed for. Spool-up times? If dcs was off in spool-up times this would be almost impossible To notice for the average flight simmer and definitely for the once that doesn’t understand AOA in the first place. As a pilot I can assure you the spool-up characteristics are quick close to how a jet engine reacts and definitely close enough not to cause any issues in DCS. If you find it an issue, then 99% the issue is you.
 

None of anything you say makes sense, you pick up bits left right and center, twist people’s words and can’t connect then in your mind the right way.

 

You just love the sound of your own voice man. 

 

please stop waisting peoples time. And if you really want to understand AOA in the hornet read swift’s post again. 

 

 

[maxTRX]

1 hour ago, =4c=Nikola said:

Pro tip: Do not believe everything you see on YT.

 

On a traditional stable platform without FBW, throttle has influence on AoA. 

On F-18, control law allows AoA to wiggle a little bit with throttle inputs.

 

 

.  I wish we had a target AOA display on HUD (low on the right side). Some lots of Super Hornets have them. It allows the pilot to set the desired AOA with the trim hat ahead of time and as the jet slows down, the bracket lines up, all the pilot has to do is maintain the glide path with the throttle.

[=4c=Nikola]

Just now, Gripes323 said:

 

.  I wish we had a target AOA display on HUD (low on the right side). Some lots of Super Hornets have them. It allows the pilot to set the desired AOA with the trim hat ahead of time and as the jet slows down, the bracket lines up, all the pilot has to do is maintain the glide path with the throttle.

 

Yea, that sounds like a good idea on paper, but if you rush to trim for on-speed AoA you end up mistrimmed for some time. Idk, I would need to try it first to decide whether I like that feature.