Debunking RVE MOD myths.

[RvETito]

The most realistic players are the amazing Aero formation teams and off line users.

 

While I admire the skills and dedication of the aerobatic teams the second part of your sentence causes nothing but laugh. If you really believe those words then I have nothing more to say to you, concerning flight sims in general.

[Frostie]

Boneski, I think you miss the point of this mod.

 

The idea is to be able to apply realistic tactics to the sim and come out victorious when attacking from a well gained advantageous position, unfortunately with LOMAC in its current state that is so often not the case.

 

Its limited to online servers that choose to use it and AI really doesn't come into it. Im sure if server admins want they're missions to have AI, worrying about the implications of using this mod or not will be a non issue.

 

With realistic tactics and organisation applied your argument about PvP being less realistic than formation flying and offline play doesn't hold water.

[Boneski]

No... Just saying the points you made were spot on.

 

Wait...what?

 

Maybe I misunderstand you, but if you're equating what I said with your opinion, I think you misunderstand me.

 

I'm all for this type of thing. "To play realistically you have to be realistic about what you are playing"? Why thank you, yes I do. This mod looks like its trying to force people to play by the same rules that some already choose to play by. Think of it as a glimpse of what will be ;). *I* play by those rules, even to the point of gimping myself. If you do your best to use your aircraft the way it was intended to be used, with all its limitations you will see that things can be plenty realistic.

 

Something as simple as flying a MiG-29 and capping your altitude range to 2k-20k feet to simulate your look-down limitations and side lobe problems or loading your Russian planes with mostly R-27Rs to simulate rarity gives you an entirely new perspective on this sim. I even go so far as to only use evasion tactics that I know from reality. No berioza jinking at the last minute.

 

To the other guys... take it easy... there is no attept to change any minds or points of view here. This is a post about a game... not life and death.

The thread starter shared an opinion... the comments made are just opinions, nothing more... not making a statement of fact. Enjoy the mod, it seems like good work...

Edited October 6, 2008 by Boneski

[RedTiger]

While I admire the skills and dedication of the aerobatic teams the second part of your sentence causes nothing but laugh. If you really believe those words then I have nothing more to say to you, concerning flight sims in general.

 

I consider myself a realistic off-line user! :D Maybe I'm just special. :smartass: Seriously though, I don't know how you took that remark but you're probably right in most cases. The key to realism off-line is scale and scope.

[RvEFuSiOn]

Umm.. Wait a minute... Boneski have u actually flown online?

Btw just so u know, no servers online have "AI Wingmen"

sorry what planet are u on again and what game are u playing?

[TheMoose]

IMO You should had inserted a "No. I prefer to fly as the way it was meant to be flown by ED until a possible future release of a patch" instead of yours.

 

That might have yielded more accurate results then given the only choice of being "Threatened" = Feeling lesser equal then…

[A.S]

Problem:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0488djMDBU

 

Solution:

 

LRM

 

 

period!!! geeez

 

 

why you guys making a such huge "oh my god the world will end" discussion bout this all. The game/sim whatever you wanna call it will not change. Everything stays the same except fixing these above shown problems and few nice features like IFF for F-15 and TWS eleveation.

 

Everyone who is not seeing this, is not seeing or understanding what this is for at all and most probably arguing out of fear or ignorance.

 

IT WILL NOT CHANGE THE WORLD EITHER THE COMMUNITY what B...Sh.. conspiracy is this???

 

It fixes few major problems of the game itself in order to make sure, everyone can enjoy it more ...and i mean EVERYONE.

 

I cant understand why some fear the word REALISM so much -- you dont have to visit a combat school in order to fly with LRM. You should fear the current status (exploit video)

 

Do you understand?

Edited October 7, 2008 by A.S

[TheMoose]

Problem:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0488djMDBU

 

Solution:

 

LRM

 

 

period!!! geeez

 

Do you understand?

 

I’m not disputing the obvious bugs with the current status. I’m just implying that the tone of this poll is either you choose this mod or you’re not good enough. Which makes no sense at all. Who would want to vote saying feeling less equal then… Well you have 7.

 

 

 

The tone of this pole is more subjective then objective.

 

Just making a statement that the results cannot really represent a real picture.

 

 

That is all.

 

 

Regards

[A.S]

I understand what you saying, but i think this "tone" is excatly what we dont need as creative critics and it is morelikly an interpretation of those who cant stay objective.

 

OF course we want this MOD to be discussed, analysed and so on....but on a base we can work with.... like this is good cuz....this is not good cuz....this could be dont better here and there cuz..

 

Things like .."it will split the community" to light and hardcore flyers ??? :huh:

cmon

 

Actually there is nothing what you have to learn additionaly in order to use it..... everything will stay the same...you still can fly how you did all the time before..... except you wont see weird situations where u cant understand why someone dodged all your missiles with nose on you down to merge :)

 

And its absolutly not a MUST....its a progress ...a choice...NOTHING TO FEAR folks !!!

Edited October 7, 2008 by A.S

[RvEFuSiOn]

You know, i don't really post on these forums unless its absolutely necessary. So here goes....

 

I've noticed a number of things about this community, everyone complains about Lockon and its bugs and how it messes up the game, these bugs and/or exploits have caused a lot of old school pilots to leave the game.

What I've also noticed is when anyone actually goes out on a limb and tries to fix these known issues with the game, those very same people start complaining about the fixes.

 

In all my years around here Ive seen, you cant please everyone, and usually ignorance is the norm and seems be to be more rampant than ever. It's kind of sad to see so many people bickering about nonsense just out of mere ignorance.

 

I can see no solution for this and what's sad once again is, its those small select group of complainers whiners that are actually the culprits for "splitting" the community.

 

Ask yourselves this.....

Have I actually tested these fixes or am I just yapping for the heck of yapping to sound important?

Cause all I hear is a lot of background noise and no Music!

 

If you want to have an opinion that is purely objective, you first need to try something before actually forming a bias opinion on it.

 

Now the question is this... What do you want?

 

That's all.

-Peace

Edited October 7, 2008 by =RvE=FuSiOn

[TheMoose]

By the way RvE thanks for your continued attempts to try to make online MP better then it presently is. I’ll try your server when I have a chance.

 

Cheers

[Boneski]

Bro.. it's not fear... it's being asked to accept someone's idea of realism. Some agree with them some will not.

 

Why is THAT so hard to understand? Maybe that's the better

question. (please don't take this or any post in a negative way... the mod is cool, it seems like great work just not in agreement that it adds realism.)

 

What's cool about this mod is that you can use it if you want. And not worry about those that don't.

 

As for flying online... do it all the time with a group of pilots with really good skill sets. Lock ON is a great tool for the kind of work being done.

 

On the server in use the owner see no need to force issues of fairness. Since good tactics don't require a server mods.

 

The mission that are played on the server will not work well with this mod. Most missions use AI so this mod would cause more problems then it fixes in this case.

 

RVE: Again thanks for the great work and support. Don't regard this post or any post sharing a different opinion as a diss or anything negative. -Bones

 

 

 

Problem:

 

 

 

I cant understand why some fear the word REALISM so much -- you dont have to visit a combat school in order to fly with LRM. You should fear the current status (exploit video)

 

Do you understand?

Edited October 7, 2008 by Boneski

[A.S]

it's being asked to accept someone's idea of realism. Some agree with them some will not.

 

 

...would you please please read the LRM.pdf and see SOMEONE´s idea of realism ..or at least what lrm actually does.

then please add your OWN idea of realism.

 

Bro ..honestly ..reading the rest of you post....i think you dont understand at all what has been done and thats the reason why you post things what are totally irrelavant.

You dragging lrm to AI and tactics...and missions totally away from what it actually is.....you really dont know what LRM is...do you?

 

http://www.f.kth.se/~kjolhede/LRMrc5.pdf

 

please read it...understand the idea and the concept of it, comparing it with the exploit video above posted...THEN ...please ....im fully open ears to hear your suggestions.

 

PS: Question: How many of those 53 people who voted for or against LRM do REALLY understand what they have voted for?

Edited October 7, 2008 by A.S

[HitchHikingFlatlander]

I read the document! But I'll admit I'm new to the online scene in LOMAC and havent experienced all the problems in online play (at least that I know of). On the other hand I'm not new to online simming and any utility that gives players an option to experience things a different way is good in my book! You dont have to love it you dont have to hate it and more importantly you dont have to use it.

 

I read posts from people like "but, but, but you can/t......." remember you dont have to play it! Now if you could only make the A10 invisible to the eye and radar..................

[Kuky]

Reason I am neither in favior or against (totaly) of this mod is because I think some of the things it's trying to fix are good, but some are not.

 

The IFF on the F-15 is existant and it's not in LockOn... so you've added this functionality by a workaround.. fair enough... I suport this.

 

The TDS should stay on last position when radar lock is lost... again, some of guys know 100% this is how F-15 radar works so again you've added this feature.. fine, again I suport it.

 

What I don't suport is these "estimates" which no one really has any propper means of obtaining (unless someone actually has military test results if they were ever conducted for things like this) how often and how far, etc etc your lock will be lost if you fly that high, etc etc. I don't agree with this because it's nothing but guessing... also you can say some radar's are known to have better look-down, shoot down capabilities then others, but again this is just speculation on your part and again I do not agree it should be added like this... I'd rather leave things like this as they are.

 

The automated flaps and gear... this is not adding to realism, au contraire, it's going away from realism because real aircaft do not have automated gear retraction. Flaps might but then definitely not on all aircraft and definitely not on older generation fighters... things might jam and mulfunction because of missusage by the pilot... but this mod does not address this in this manner. And again, if you could add actual mulfunction of the system like flaps jamming becasue of excessive speed then you still need real world data (actual tests) to know what conditions cause what mulfunctions. Lots of data like this is also most likely clasified or if not hard to obtain unless you have some contacts in the military... and even if you did you can't have refferences for things like this for all the aircrtaft we have in this sim which would bring us again to, yeah you've guessing it... guessing. This is why again I'd like to leave things like auto flaps/gear out.

 

I'm not done giving my opinion on other things (like side lobes and how much effect they actually have, at what altidude, radar elevation etc) but I just want to make a point that this mod sure does have good things which we all like to have (noted in first 2 sections in my post) but some don't, so I don't understand either why you guys push so much to have everyone fly this mod.

 

I admire your knowledge and dedication you've put into this Yoda (and others working with him) but I for one would like to have things "fixed" and used if we all know and agree will bring us to how things work in real world. So bring on the IFF and auto-antena-slew and bring on the auto flaps also (if the actual aircraft has this feature) but if it doesn't don't use it. Also guesses are not really doing much for me either... I'd rather you come up with concept of how real thing works, what effects it and how and to what extent (if you can come up with this info, and if you can cudos to you) then make a formula to calculate this and if you can do that then I say do it... but I think this is close to impossible.

 

right, I'll stop yapping on about... I hope you see my point...

[Crow_Bar]

As a Frog driver, I did not really pay much attention to this at first, but having read the document, and from what I can see its a well thought out patch ( to me its a patch, others may see it as a mod) anyway my two cents.:)

[Pilotasso]

IMO You should had inserted a "No. I prefer to fly as the way it was meant to be flown by ED until a possible future release of a patch" instead of yours.

 

That might have yielded more accurate results then given the only choice of being "Threatened" = Feeling lesser equal then…

 

 

You missed the first few posts, of course when you vote you need first read about the matter. I was being sarcastic.

 

I have always felt that the community is very caustic torwards MODers. There was a time I tryied to do some projects but hit so much criticism that I eventualy stopped, I experimented on my own game in an unfinished status but never released the work.

 

LOMAC became an arcade game due to the bugs and it atracted airquackers, some of the audience is "air unreal tournament". When server administrators try do something more serious servers get less people.

 

LRM is an attenpt to bring it back to a serious level, and of course it hits the sensitivities of those people who see the game shift back to its raison d'etre.

 

Its a mistake and self deception to afirm that the game as IS now, is like ED intended. Its not and themselves admit it. FUSION is very right also to say that some people here think ignorance is bliss to justify the status quo, I have said it just a few posts ago.

 

 

I have another advice for those who voted no:

 

When the game became arcade overybody supporting such style of playing saying "DEAL WITH IT". So we did even though we didnt like it.

 

Now we bring this motto back to them. Its only fair. :)

Edited October 7, 2008 by Pilotasso

[Kuky]

Yoda, I just flew a bit in 104th and noticed while in Su-27 I could not lock a guy at 10km bellow me because even though I could see him on radar my vertical radar elevation was "spiking" up and down... it was not stable for me to have the contact on radar even 1/2 sec... by the way I use Cougar Antena Axis for radar elevation.

[Pilotasso]

What I don't suport is these "estimates" which no one really has any propper means of obtaining (unless someone actually has military test results if they were ever conducted for things like this) how often and how far, etc etc your lock will be lost if you fly that high, etc etc. I don't agree with this because it's nothing but guessing... also you can say some radar's are known to have better look-down, shoot down capabilities then others, but again this is just speculation on your part and again I do not agree it should be added like this... I'd rather leave things like this as they are.

 

 

ED also estimated a burn through distance of 13 miles because they wanted to use HOJ features independently of Jammer and radar resistence. Abviously this is wrong as well, and I think ED did it because there was no time to implement a proper ECM algoritm. Between this and LRM I choose LRM. As far as the other things about flaps and gear Im entirely open for a change and its niot that important.

[A.S]

gear retraction will be removed

 

Flaps is a thing we have to think about...regarding manuals....there is no flaps under specific condidtions in real.....anyway...i let this to GG and Yoda.

Airbrakes .....well in real F-15 you wont be able to use them above 12deg AoA at all.....kinda....but that didnt worked out

very well under lockon environment... so this is also something we could think about......

 

ECM...well ....personally ..thats maybe the best part in LRM .... :smilewink:

 

Gents these kind of contributions are somethings we can work with....but not ....doomsday prophecies :P

[Kuky]

Flew bit more on 104th just now... I'd say mod's ECM is alright and I'd keep it (or modify more if need be but definitely a good thing) but I think there still needs more coding/thought for other things like radar self jam and this Override LA thingo... happens that I fired an ET as I was in slight dive and pince and I had the LA cue... the missile tracked (and hit) but mod code law it as maddog and dropped all my remaining weapons... same thing happened to Cali (he didn't LA Override either)

[Boneski]

totally irrelavant.

 

Understanding is not the issue sir... agreement that a change is need is the issue that drives this simple opinion... The details that have been shared on this great work open up some interesting possibilities.

 

Not sure how many times it can be said that the mod is a good thing if you feel like a change in the area it addresses is an issue to you. Clearly the 50+ plus people that play with you guys online agree.

 

Many others may not since there are more then 56 users of Lock On

that link up.

[RvEFuSiOn]

Understanding is not the issue sir... agreement that a change is need is the issue that drives this simple opinion... The details that have been shared on this great work open up some interesting possibilities.

 

Not sure how many times it can be said that the mod is a good thing if you feel like a change in the area it addresses is an issue to you. Clearly the 50+ plus people that play with you guys online agree.

 

Many others may not since there are more then 56 users of Lock On

that link up.

 

 

I'm curious Boneski have you actually flown this mod or are you here for the banter?

 

I mean i respect Kuky cause he tried it and he voiced his opinion after doing so, but from what you are saying I don't see you doing anything but commenting on something you have no clue about.

 

This community gets weirder and weirder each time i check these forums

[mibsk]

I did read all those ten pages today ... (bored with my job ... at work ... so I sticked to the forums reading ...)

Trully - I noticed today that I already did fly this mod somewhere - as I was surprised where are my weapons after I fired a missile on some server (now I know it could be one of two ... ) ... I don't like to loose weapons when I see valid 'LA' on my screen (as Kuky noted)... example of negative sideeffect ... ;-))) I do agree with this mod as it tends to move the lomac user to use tactics (and advantages/disadvantages thinking) instead of specifics of the LOMAC code ... It will have side-effects too, but every change incorporating more than one unknowns has ... I'm looking forward to touch the evolution (other word for optimisation ... ;-) ), and thanks for the job you did with it guys.

 

(First of things I will do when I get back home today will be: undefining the Alt-W combination in my LOMAC config ... to be sure I will not unintentionaly press it ... ;-) ... that's an example of positive sideeffect ... ;-))) )

 

Salute !

SVK_MiB

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Is there a link to the mod and mod documents?