Phoenix missile wont show on RWR

[Das Feuer]

I would add later this day a video of this. 

 

The basic idea is:

- 80% of the time the missile won't show on RWR and you would just die.

 

- The time it does show on RWR it usually shows about 0.5 seconds before impact and very rarely it will show 3-4 second before impact.

 

- Also a F-14 will not show on the RWR when it locks you for most of the time, it will maybe blip in RWR twice or a bit more but that's it.

 

(Tests have been done on the Viper [F-16] but a Hornet [F-18] player that i fly with also confirmed that the Phoenix doesn't show on RWR).

 

*I would try to add a video of this happening when im home, around 6-4 hours from when this is posted*

[IronMike]

Thank you. If this is happening on the RWR of another module, it is likely an oversight on their side and would have to be addressed with them, please.

[defeatist99]

It's not happening in any other module. It only happens when flying the tomcat.  Next time it happens ill post the video and trackfile. The stealth phoenixes and R-33s are back. I keep continuously getting shot down from 70 miles by AI F-14s and AI Mig-31s without so much as a spike. Just flying along and jester calls a missile inbound. Nothing on the RWR and then you get hit with no warning or like they said you get warning basically as you explode.

 

It's happened a bunch on stream and it happened as recently as monday. Track files are too large to upload though, so I will see if I can find anything on my recent vods.

Edited August 20, 2021 by defeatist99

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

27 minutes ago, defeatist99 said:

It's not happening in any other module.

What IronMike is saying, is that it's only HeatBlur's responsibility if the Phoenix doesn't show up on another F-14's RWR.

The FC3 F-15's got the same problem: it just blows up without any warning. That would be ED's job to fix...

[captain_dalan]

38 minutes ago, defeatist99 said:

...The stealth phoenixes and R-33s are back. I keep continuously getting shot down from 70 miles by AI F-14s and AI Mig-31s without so much as a spike. Just flying along and jester calls a missile inbound. Nothing on the RWR and then you get hit with no warning or like they said you get warning basically as you explode...

 

Weird, are those AI F-14's the old or the new F-14's? Cause the new ones? Cause the new ones won't engage till well inside 30NM. 

As for the R-33, this one most certainly showed on my RWR:
 

 

[defeatist99]

It's new tomcats as it was happening recently. As for the R-33 they usually show up but not always. I'm trying to see if I can find the VOD that also shows the Tacview but I got slapped at 70 miles by an R-33 without anything but a 31 nails.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

What IronMike is saying, is that it's only HeatBlur's responsibility if the Phoenix doesn't show up on another F-14's RWR.

The FC3 F-15's got the same problem: it just blows up without any warning. That would be ED's job to fix...

Didn't realize the issue is also in the 15 as I don't fly FC3. It's understandable. I was just searching through and not seeing it reported anywhere.

[defeatist99]

 

37 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

Weird, are those AI F-14's the old or the new F-14's? Cause the new ones? Cause the new ones won't engage till well inside 30NM. 

As for the R-33, this one most certainly showed on my RWR:
 

 

This was 5 days ago. I got the warning from the first R-33. I defeated it and turned back in only to get hit by a different one with no warning whatsoever. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1123656359

 

Here's another with a tomcat from two days ago. This one is far more boarderline though as I did potentially have the missile in the blind spot. However, I still would have expected the missile to have been pitbull before I started defending and if it was pitbull I would have had indication because it was on my 6 when it hit and I still never got a peep out of the RWR. If the missile was pitbull I still should have had some tone and if it was being guided by the aircraft I would have had a spike from them which I didn't. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1123615835

Edited August 20, 2021 by defeatist99

[Kula66]

5 hours ago, defeatist99 said:

 

 However, I still would have expected the missile to have been pitbull before I started defending and if it was pitbull I would have had indication because it was on my 6 when it hit and I still never got a peep out of the RWR. If the missile was pitbull I still should have had some tone and if it was being guided by the aircraft I would have had a spike from them which I didn't. 

 

Is the r-33 a fox-3?

[draconus]

2 hours ago, Kula66 said:

Is the r-33 a fox-3?

In DCS it's SARH only.

Edited August 20, 2021 by draconus

[Kula66]

So @defeatist99why the reference to it going ‘pit bull’? They just don’t work like that. Plus the 31’s PESA radar is very different anyway, it will appear to do odd things.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Kula66

[captain_dalan]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

At 3:13 you switched to the Hornet and don't show what happened to your Tomcat.

 

But if you see in the left side of the screen an F-14B is smacked in the nose by an R-33. So it was a MiG that shot him

[captain_dalan]

7 hours ago, defeatist99 said:

 

Here's another with a tomcat from two days ago. This one is far more boarderline though as I did potentially have the missile in the blind spot. However, I still would have expected the missile to have been pitbull before I started defending and if it was pitbull I would have had indication because it was on my 6 when it hit and I still never got a peep out of the RWR. If the missile was pitbull I still should have had some tone and if it was being guided by the aircraft I would have had a spike from them which I didn't. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1123615835

 

This one is more difficult to judge. If the AI uses the same rules as human controlled F-14, then the missile could go active extremely close to you and by then you were belly up.  

How far away was that F-14 that engaged you? By new or old i meant, what F-14 was used by the AI. Discussing with some fellow mission creators, i confirmed that if the AI is using the HB F-14 as opposed to the old ED F-14, the former would refuse to engage on it's own until very close. We are talkin 20 something NM range for medium altitudes, and 30-ish NM for high altitude shots. Even done AI VS AI experiments of ED F-14 VS HB F-14, MiG-31 VS HB F-14, MiG-31 VS ED F-14 and F-15 VS HB F-14, it was the same in all scenarios. The only workaround is the use the AI as a wingman to a human player and let the player order the AI engage at long range. 

How do you get the HB F-14 to engage at longer ranges when controlled by the AI?

[captain_dalan]

1 hour ago, Kula66 said:

So @defeatist99why the reference to it going ‘pit bull’? They just don’t work like that. Plus the 31’s PESA radar is very different anyway, it will appear to do odd things.

 

That indeed should be so. I usually get a launch warning from a 31, the R-33 being FOX-1 and all that, but there were instances when i didn't and always attributed this the PESA nature of the radar. Has anyone discussed this with ED? Their patches never mention the 31, yet the behavior does vary from time to time. I've never dropped the issue as my statistic sample is too small to make any rational deduction on what is going on. 

[draconus]

37 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

But if you see in the left side of the screen an F-14B is smacked in the nose by an R-33. So it was a MiG that shot him

Oh, yes, thx.

 

About the second video vs F-14 it was very close, the shot could even be inside 10nm, that would make any Phoenix shoot active right away.

 

And apart from potential bugs @defeatist99 you play quite aggressive and risky game judging from those videos and yet you're so annoyed and surprised that you die. You can't wait for the RWR to save you every time or just fly between the missiles evading. No wonder one of them will reach you eventually.

Edited August 20, 2021 by draconus

[captain_dalan]

A pleasure! 

[draconus]

36 minutes ago, captain_dalan said:

Discussing with some fellow mission creators, i confirmed that if the AI is using the HB F-14 as opposed to the old ED F-14, the former would refuse to engage on it's own until very close

I did a test a few weeks ago and old ED F-14 AI was the only one who could shoot multiple Phoenixes in TWS.

 

btw: It's never a good report when something happens randomly on some MP game. I understand how hard it is for HB to reproduce such events.

Edited August 20, 2021 by draconus

[captain_dalan]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

I did a test a few weeks ago and old ED F-14 AI was the only one who could shoot multiple Phoenixes in TWS.

 

I actually got my AI wingman to engage with multiple Phoenix shots here: 

But the trick is tell him to engage at long distance. He actually goes FOX-3, launches two times and scores 1 hit. Left to its own devices though, the AI will just fly to the target until 30 miles or so before engaging. 

5 hours ago, draconus said:

 

btw: It's never a good report when something happens randomly on some MP game. I understand how hard it is for HB to reproduce such events.

 

I know, these things are best conducted in controlled conditions and my as many players-testers as possible

[captain_dalan]

Just did some tests against the MiG-31. My intent was to test launches from different altitudes in an attempt to correlate launch warning with RWR blind spots. Alas, the AI would not cooperate as desired. Still, all launches were detected. 
 

My hypothesis: 
Either the MiG locked you from a blind spot, or he has lost the lock, but the missile HOJ-ammed you. Were your ECM on during the encounter? 

[defeatist99]

10 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Just did some tests against the MiG-31. My intent was to test launches from different altitudes in an attempt to correlate launch warning with RWR blind spots. Alas, the AI would not cooperate as desired. Still, all launches were detected. 
 

My hypothesis: 
Either the MiG locked you from a blind spot, or he has lost the lock, but the missile HOJ-ammed you. Were your ECM on during the encounter? 

 

 

ECM shouldn't have been on. It's possible I guess but I would have to double check with my rio. It happened to me again yesterday on stream. It seems to me that it has to do with previously receiving a launch tone and not receiving subsequent ones. In each instance that it's happened with R-33s I get the warning from the first shot and defeat it and it's either the second missile that kills me or a missile that should be dead keeps tracking with no warning.

[captain_dalan]

11 hours ago, defeatist99 said:

 

 

1 .....receiving a launch tone and not receiving subsequent ones.
2 ....missile that should be dead keeps tracking with no warning.

1. That is indeed weird. Never happened to me before but if it's constantly repeating to you, then it's definitely worth investigating.
2. This is why i suspected home on jam. Have you talked to someone from ED about this? Is it a missile feature? This does happen to me as well if i don't take any action after launch. The RWR will go haywire on launch, then go silent, then the missile will hit. However i have zero knowledge on the operational behavior of the MiG-31/R33 weapons system as a whole, or how that translates to DCS. All i know is that it should FOX-1 guided by a PESA, but it wouldn't be the first time DCS engine limitations resulted in wonky feature implementations. I.E. the AI counter-measure-ing the instant you launch at them, despite you launching passive or TWS guided ordnance  

[defeatist99]

3 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

1. That is indeed weird. Never happened to me before but if it's constantly repeating to you, then it's definitely worth investigating.
2. This is why i suspected home on jam. Have you talked to someone from ED about this? Is it a missile feature? This does happen to me as well if i don't take any action after launch. The RWR will go haywire on launch, then go silent, then the missile will hit. However i have zero knowledge on the operational behavior of the MiG-31/R33 weapons system as a whole, or how that translates to DCS. All i know is that it should FOX-1 guided by a PESA, but it wouldn't be the first time DCS engine limitations resulted in wonky feature implementations. I.E. the AI counter-measure-ing the instant you launch at them, despite you launching passive or TWS guided ordnance  

Yeah, I mean I'm not sure where this issue should go then. I'm trying to get the issue reported and that's why I'm here. And yeah, you are correct. It is a fox 1 but it has an INS. So it should be able to launch without giving an immediate warning but it should be screaming at you for all of terminal guidance because it still needs to be guided by the 31 radar. If it's giving launch tone immediately then it stops it's backwards from what it should be.

[Kula66]

54c is extremely useful close in ... no big smoke trail in the sky!

[Airhunter]

2 hours ago, Kula66 said:

54c is extremely useful close in ... no big smoke trail in the sky!

 

The C is reduced smoke, it is not completely smokeless anymore like it was in the past.

[Kula66]

@Airhunter Did I say the C has no smoke?

Edited August 22, 2021 by Kula66

[captain_dalan]

7 hours ago, defeatist99 said:

Yeah, I mean I'm not sure where this issue should go then. I'm trying to get the issue reported and that's why I'm here. And yeah, you are correct. It is a fox 1 but it has an INS. So it should be able to launch without giving an immediate warning but it should be screaming at you for all of terminal guidance because it still needs to be guided by the 31 radar. If it's giving launch tone immediately then it stops it's backwards from what it should be.

Just did the same test as before in the F-16 and the F-18. In both planes the RWR starts the launch warning as soon as the bandit fires the missile. It also doesn't stop until the missile hits you or misses you completely. 

On the other hand, in the F-14A and B, the RWR starts the launch warning as soon as the bandit fires, but around 45 nautical miles it switches back to being locked warning. So this is an F-14 SPECIFIC issue, and quite possibly a BUG! 
Can anyone else confirm this? Someone from HB or a mod?