An Open Letter to the Community

[ZaltysZ]

Haven't you heard about piracy of books? Even big books with 800 or 1000 pages are scanned and even OCR'ed to be put on internet. Trim left margin with knife to separate the pages and put them in scanner with automatic page feeder, wait some hours and save the .pdf file. Protection based on printed manuals is too weak. I dare to say it is not protection at all.

[Kuky]

hm... is there some way to have something printed that scanners can't pick up?

[Feuerfalke]

Haven't you heard about piracy of books? Even big books with 800 or 1000 pages are scanned and even OCR'ed to be put on internet. Trim left margin with knife to separate the pages and put them in scanner with automatic page feeder, wait some hours and save the .pdf file. Protection based on printed manuals is too weak. I dare to say it is not protection at all.

 

You can easily print manuals and books that are copy-protected. Just making the pictures glossy will render most copy-machines useless. Other methods include having faint pictures in the background. You can print them with ink that reflects or shine through and you will see little from the copied version. And even if you managed to overcome these problems, you'd still have to deal with the crappy copy-handbook instead of the full.

 

But I agree with you in a way, as there is no 100% safe copy-protection at all.

[Kuky]

hm.... thinking... imagine having whole manual (or some important pages) printed in invisible ink that can be see only under ultraviolet light... and you're get it in box with disk... this wouldn't be scannable right, so they woudn't be able to make PDF?

 

PS: just thinking out loud :D

[Feuerfalke]

hm.... thinking... imagine having whole manual (or some important pages) printed in invisible ink that can be see only under ultraviolet light... and you're get it in box with disk... this wouldn't be scannable right, so they woudn't be able to make PDF?

 

PS: just thinking out loud :D

 

LOL

 

:smilewink:

 

No, but non-copyable ink is used in many other branches for various purposes, not just for copy-protection. It's used for sketching technical drawings or even for comics. And of course for printing money. :smilewink:

[Kuky]

I just had an idea...

 

What if they invent some kind of electrical serial key recognition hardware that's USB plugable?

 

In the box you'd get CD/DVD Manual and USB plugable Serial Recognition thingo... in order to install the game both CD/DVD serial and Serial Recognition token would have to match? :book:

 

It's like having a propper physical "key" for the "lock" ! They can't download that over internet, right?!

 

Workable?

 

Only problem would be you'd have to buy the game in stores only...

Edited October 27, 2008 by Kuky

[Feuerfalke]

A dongle is quite expensive and it is checked by software, thus can be hacked, too. :smilewink:

[ZaltysZ]

I just had an idea...

 

What if they invent some kind of electrical serial key recognition hardware that's USB plugable?

 

In the box you'd get CD/DVD Manual and USB plugable Serial Recognition thingo... in order to install the game both CD/DVD serial and Serial Recognition token would have to match? :book:

 

It's like having a propper physical "key" for the "lock" ! They can't download that over internet, right?!

 

Workable?

 

Only problem would be you'd have to buy the game in stores only...

 

Nor innovative, nor effective. Some CAD software used such protection in the past, some still uses now, however almost all are cracked if there is demand. Online activations are superrior to that.

[Kuky]

well then we can't win then can we :cry:

[Tompax]

From what I gathered, the situation is something like this: I come to a restaurant... The service is somewhat not what I was hoping for and the quality of the food is excuisite as such, but not what I would actually like to eat. The choice is simple: leave without comotion but be hungry, or stay and eat magnificent trouts, although you would really enjoy magnificent salmon, hoping the waiter might put a smile on his face more often.

 

I choose to stay. For me, this is the only restaurant in town.

[GGTharos]

Unfortunately copy protections on printed material are rather expensive, and if you consider that Black Shark is also meant to cater to the casual user as well as the hard-core simmer ... (Did you know that acrade mode is best played with a gamepad?)

 

Online activations are superior because you at least control one end of the process - meaning if done correctly, the crack would have to be very sophisticated.

 

For those who are curious, I suggest reading up how SSL with certificates work. Something like that. :)

[Maulkin]

Well this thread is the first I have heard about any of this, and while I understand that ED wants to protect their property, I just want to add myself to the list of people who refuse to purchase a product that has limited installations of any kind. I liked the idea where LOMAC required the CD in the drive once a week, but if this 'activations' that was described in the first post of this thread means limited number of installs then I am willing to live with the disappointment of anxiously waiting for this sim for the last three years ending with nothing.

 

Other than that I fully support whatever ED needs to do to get this done, including take more time. I waited this long... a little longer is not going to hurt.

[ZaltysZ]

If I recall correctly there is 3 activations and 10 deactivations limit. Maybe people will feel better if limits would be reseted once a year? ;)

[GranCalvo]

Unfortunately copy protections on printed material are rather expensive, and if you consider that Black Shark is also meant to cater to the casual user as well as the hard-core simmer ... (Did you know that acrade mode is best played with a gamepad?)

 

Online activations are superior because you at least control one end of the process - meaning if done correctly, the crack would have to be very sophisticated.

 

For those who are curious, I suggest reading up how SSL with certificates work. Something like that. :)

 

Tharos, could you answer some questions?. Do you think that 1 copy pirated means 1 sale less?. I mean, if Russian market has a 90% of videogames piracy (in Spain is 70%), do you think that you would increase 90% sales if nobody could pirate the game?. If the answer is not, what is the losses percentage for the piracy?. 60%, 20%?. How do you know those numbers?. Regards

[GGTharos]

I can answer your questions, but I am speaking for myself now, not for ED.

 

The pirated vs. lost sales exchange is not 1:1. We'll not really know the actual exchange number.

 

What you CAN do is assume that once something is pirated, copies will be made and sold on the cheap in countries such as Russia, China, etc.

 

THOSE sales (where physical media is sold, but cheaper) are to a large degree lost sales IMHO.

Those who download (ie. they have an internet connection) might be a lower proportion of lost sales.

Here you have to either launch a very good study to discover what is what, or assume. Even a relatively low assumption (Assume 10% for example are lost sales) can be a VERY large monetary sum. Support you sell something for $10, and your 90% piracy figure is 1000000 people. How much money have you lost?

 

As far as Eagle Dynamics goes, they have the following data to base their decisions on:

 

Sales of LOMAC + LOMAC Infringements

Sales of LOFC + LOFC Infringements

 

Based on that data (ie. amount of money they made from each, and pirated copies of each seen floating about) they drew some conclusions which led them to believe that SF was effective in increasing their revenue.

[Dudikoff]

Online activations are superior because you at least control one end of the process - meaning if done correctly, the crack would have to be very sophisticated.

For those who are curious, I suggest reading up how SSL with certificates work. Something like that. :)

 

Maybe I am missing something, but online activations are not cracked themselves, but are circumvented in the cracked exe of the game. For example, Far Cry 2 has an online-activation system but a crack was readily available.

 

So, no matter the online activation system, there is a good chance that the first release will be cracked and all this online activation would just be a hassle for the developer and the end user.

 

I still think the emphasis should be put on the game updates. and serial number checks in those. OR, instead of having online activations, the game could have an online update system which would check the serial number and the patches would not be available for direct download. These patches could be then made available for download after a certain phase of product life-cycle has been reached.

[GGTharos]

While nothing lasts forever, keeping the CP updated and controlling at least one end of it is not a bad way to do things, from a security stand-point, IMHO. :)

 

Your idea is nice, but anyone can copy a serial ... so then, how do you decide when to ban a serial? :) I suppose you could always watch to see if it suddenly comes from 50 different IP's. Second, the downloaded upgrade needs to be stored somewhere. The installer would then have to do the check itself somehow, otherwise how do you deal with people who do not have internet access?

[Feuerfalke]

Question is, if these figures compare, GranCalvo.

 

These numbers represent all software & digital piracy (movies, MP3, etc) AFAIK. That includes Windows, Office and such tools as well as games.

 

But games and videos are a bit different than the rest of the products, as the illegal copy mostly is connected with some large sideeffect. Therefore many reports on this matter state, that these digital pirates, sooner or later freely buy the full product, because they want to play the game online. It's one thing to have a cracked unpatched solo-game, another to play it on official servers and stuff.

 

And IMHO this is even more true for a niche-product like our flightsims. I doubt there's more than a handful of people who downloaded BS illegally instead of getting a copy later on. There are many reasons, why people might have been tempted, looking at the last weeks, no excuse for that, of course, but enough to make clear, that the calculations are not as easy as 1 pirated copy = 1 less sale.

[patricio_z]

If I recall correctly there is 3 activations and 10 deactivations limit. Maybe people will feel better if limits would be reseted once a year? ;)

 

I think this is a very good idea, give the user a few (3 to 5) activations with the game, and update that number in time, lets say once per year, that would mean a no "limited installation" kind of thing, which is what most people is uncomfortable with right now

 

One thing that should work also is to have some kind of online checking system to avoid the same "licensed software" on several machines at the same time

And finally if DCS goes under (lets hope not!!!) , an official patch should be issued to remove all limits of installations

 

I would hate to see one of the few companies that makes realistic flight sims (pretty much the only kind of game I play) fail because of piracy, so I am willing to reach a compromise with CP (wich I wont with other game generes) in order to help DCS continue to make flight sims.

 

Sory for my english

[ZaltysZ]

Simulators are unpopular games. Why? Because they offer what not every kid can understand and needs what not every kid (or his parents) can afford to buy. You can't compare them to some first person shooter, because simulators don't have such big demand, nor there is demand for their cracks (why crack something about what almost no ne cares..?).

 

Online activation could be cracked of course, but probably it should be done for every version of the game. Black Shark is simulator and is buggy (as all simulators), lots of patches would be coming in the future, so lots of different versions. To much work for cracker... new version, new crack... oh and after that cracker hears: "You cracked what? Black what?". :doh:

 

Incident with Russian version happened not because it was targeted, but because particular CP system were compromised. Lots of games were affected and BS just by unlucky coinsidence was one of them. If online activation was required, that wouldn't happend. I think that's the reasoning for adding activation to international realease and it is smart one.

[Crow_Bar]

Aside from all these sometime's helpfull,maybe sometime's not posts( Im not judging) Can I ask You Guys at DCS is there anything you think we can do to help?

[Feuerfalke]

As good as the online activation might be, as you posted: You cannot compare flightsims to other games, as most other games are mostly online games today.

 

While the larger portion of players buying CoD4, for example, have internet access and intend to play the game online, a largely smaller percentage of customers buy LockOn or BS to play it online.

 

In other words: If you make online activation a must, you deny access to BS to a lot of customers who don't have internet-access.

 

 

Well, but I'm sure ED knows, so let's wait for some official word on this, before we cross the 100pages sound-barrier with our assumptions. :smilewink:

[GranCalvo]

I can answer your questions, but I am speaking for myself now, not for ED.

 

The pirated vs. lost sales exchange is not 1:1. We'll not really know the actual exchange number.

 

What you CAN do is assume that once something is pirated, copies will be made and sold on the cheap in countries such as Russia, China, etc.

 

THOSE sales (where physical media is sold, but cheaper) are to a large degree lost sales IMHO.

Those who download (ie. they have an internet connection) might be a lower proportion of lost sales.

Here you have to either launch a very good study to discover what is what, or assume. Even a relatively low assumption (Assume 10% for example are lost sales) can be a VERY large monetary sum. Support you sell something for $10, and your 90% piracy figure is 1000000 people. How much money have you lost?

 

As far as Eagle Dynamics goes, they have the following data to base their decisions on:

 

Sales of LOMAC + LOMAC Infringements

Sales of LOFC + LOFC Infringements

 

Based on that data (ie. amount of money they made from each, and pirated copies of each seen floating about) they drew some conclusions which led them to believe that SF was effective in increasing their revenue.

 

Thanks for your answers. You said that cheaper copies could be sold in China or Russia for low prices, but, may be those countries would not buy the game anyway because is too expensive for their economy (domestic economy). I don't know what is the average wage in Russia or China, but most probably people could not buy the game if they consider expensive. People don't buy expensive things if they can't. If they buy pirated copies does not mean that they would buy the original if can't afford it. They can afford the pirate copy, but not the original. It's only a supposition.

Anyway, in European Union, is not legal to sell pirated copies. It's delictive and you could go to jail. It's not the same thing than download it, which is not a crime but illegal (it's not the same, illegal has not jail consequences). In fact, I have never seen pirated copies of videogames sold in the street, you only can find music or films sold by African inmigrants.

Also you say the relationship between Lomac/FC sold/downloaded points you are in the right way. But we back to the same thing, you don't know how many of those downloaded files were going to be bought. I know people who would never buy Flaming Cliffs but they should pirate it. I think all of this stuff is full of suppositions and not real facts. There is not real numbers about how piracy affects videogames sales.

But ED took the way to bother the legal user, the customer who buy your simulator. The pirate will continue playing it without any risk, without limit activations. Does it have any sense?.

Tell me, sincerely if you can. What do you think about Stardock Software attitude about piracy? What do you think about another methods like Steam? Best regards

[GGTharos]

It is enough to sell the pirate copy at 5-10% less than the original for people to buy it instead of the original, GranCalvo. To a large degree, I would think in such cases it really is a lot of lost sales.

 

As far as the actual number of lost sales, you seem to be thinking that because it cannot be judged with extreme accuracy, it should be ignored. I disagree, and obviously, so does ED.

 

Again, even if lost sales is only 5-10%, the actual amount of money it represents is a very large sum - so yes, it does make sense.

Edited October 27, 2008 by GGTharos

[joey45]

.......

In other words: If you make online activation a must, you deny access to BS to a lot of customers who don't have internet-access..........

 

HL - 2 needed tinternet access...:smartass: thats the only reason i got connected to the net..