mi-28 Havoc

[pmaura]

would love to have this Chopper as a playable Helicopter in the game

[upyr1]

If there is some early model which could get the Kremlin's seal of approval then I am all for it. However I'd be happy with a community mod. Though I expect Eagle will tell us that

 

[Tank50us]

17 hours ago, upyr1 said:

If there is some early model which could get the Kremlin's seal of approval then I am all for it. However I'd be happy with a community mod. Though I expect Eagle will tell us that

 

 

That or it could be an export variant. I mean, we got Hind after all.

[kseremak]

Mi-24P is operational since early '80s. Mi-28N since around 2010, 30 years later, this was the first production Mi-28 version. I doubt it's even remotely possible. It would be way more recent than AH-64D which is in development.

Edited August 8, 2021 by kseremak

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, Tank50us said:

 

That or it could be an export variant. I mean, we got Hind after all.

Tech level may be at play. 

[Tank50us]

2 hours ago, kseremak said:

Mi-24P is operational since early '80s. Mi-28N since around 2010, 30 years later, this was the first production Mi-28 version. I doubt it's even remotely possible. It would be way more recent than AH-64D which is in development.

 

 

I mean, we have an experimental version of the Su25 (the T), of which only 14 were built, so if ED, or a third party decided to model the Mi28 on one of the earlier versions before it was accepted for full service (the thing first flew in 1982!) I wouldn't be all that upset, if nothing else, if gives us some ground work for the production version when more data becomes available. Some food for thought.

[Gierasimov]

We have got Ka-50 as well, which is mostly educated guess and based on a prototype, we have got a Frogfoot based on a book, we can certainly have Mi-28 BUT what purpose will it serve? Is DCS about simulation (as much realistic as possible) or is it about the fun and variety of aircraft?

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Gierasimov said:

We have got Ka-50 as well, which is mostly educated guess and based on a prototype, we have got a Frogfoot based on a book, we can certainly have Mi-28 BUT what purpose will it serve? Is DCS about simulation (as much realistic as possible) or is it about the fun and variety of aircraft?

DCS is about both.  

[bies]

As long as there are real relevant aircrafts like MiG-29A, Su-17/22M, Su-25A, Su-24, MiG-27, MiG-25PD to name just the Soviet ones, possible to model in realistic way, with real documentation, with SME input and cooperation, with license etc. - making some unrealistic guesstimated prototype, working completely different than the real aircraft, would be a mistake.

 

I remember the Mi-28 in the "Apache vs Havoc" game, i liked to fly this helicopter in the dynamic campaign this game had. But it was obviously totally unrealistic with just some extremely simplified declassified Apache systems, symbology and logic working on a Soviet-era CRT monitor...

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by bies

[Gierasimov]

14 hours ago, upyr1 said:

DCS is about both.  

Then it is 'easy'. If we can secure a license from Mil, documentation and a pilot SME, I am pretty sure ED will be willing to create DCS Havoc 

[upyr1]

9 hours ago, Gierasimov said:

Then it is 'easy'. If we can secure a license from Mil, documentation and a pilot SME, I am pretty sure ED will be willing to create DCS Havoc 

The issue is if they can get the documents and support from Mil. I hope they do.  

[Gierasimov]

13 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

The issue is if they can get the documents and support from Mil. I hope they do.  

Highly doubtful.

[upyr1]

Just now, Gierasimov said:

Highly doubtful.

that's probably true, though I hope the community is willing to step up. I understand Eagle doesn't want to do franken copters/planes  or violate Russian law- but there is no reason the community can't produce the franken-28. 

[IcedVenom]

I just want ED to do more soviet stuff...

[bies]

1 hour ago, IcedVenom said:

I just want ED to do more soviet stuff...

 

Soviets incoming! In the near future we are going to have nearly all 1980s Soviet tactical aviation in DCS.

Mi-24P, Mi-8, MiG-21bis, MiG-23MLA, MiG-29 9.12, Su-17M and low fidelity Su-27S, Su-25A.

Only Su-24 will be missing.

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, IcedVenom said:

I just want ED to do more soviet stuff...

 

Need complementary BLUFOR to go with them though...

[bies]

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Need complementary BLUFOR to go with them though...

 

F-14A (and B without LANTIRN), Mirage F.1, F-5E, A-6 Intruder, A-7 Corsair, Huey, Gazelle, FC3 F-15C and A-10A.

To some extend Mirage 2000 and Viggen but this are a bit more recent variants. All quite close in capabilities.

[Northstar98]

On 10/3/2021 at 12:08 PM, bies said:

F-14A (and B without LANTIRN)

These are both mid 90s at the earliest (AN/ALR-67), the F-14A-135-GR is really the only Soviet era variant we'll get for the USN.

On 10/3/2021 at 12:08 PM, bies said:

Mirage F.1, F-5E, A-6 Intruder, A-7 Corsair, Huey, Gazelle, FC3 A-10A.

These fit, but we're still missing 80s Gen 4 that would be complementary for things like the 9-12 MiG-29, the only one that differs is the Mirage F.1CE/EE.

However, the F-15C, is at least a 2001/2003 spec aircraft AFAIK (AN/APG-63(V)1 according to its manual, though it is undeperforming).

On 10/3/2021 at 12:08 PM, bies said:

To some extend Mirage 2000 and Viggen but this are a bit more recent variants. All quite close in capabilities.

Mirage 2000C is at the earliest from 1989, due to RDI and Super 530D (only the fictional D²M stuff that makes it more recent), AJS 37 is mid-ish 90s, but can approximate the AJ 37 with weapons restricting, and if you disable TERNAV and don't use the data cartridge.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting

[bies]

FC3 F-15 AN/APG-63V)1 is just 1990s maintenance/reliability upgrade of the 1980s radar, not even close to 2000s (V)2 radars. For FC3 simplified standard it's identical to the 1980s/Desert Storm radars, it's even missing few modes compared to the Cold War one from MSIPII.

 

Heatblur themselves states their F-14 varisnts simulate aircrafts from late 1970s to early 2000s. Heatblur say even F-14B is proper for the Cold War scenarios without the LANTIRN.

ALR-67 is an old 1980s RWR. ALR-45 is even older, in use since early 1970s.

 

Quote

Q: What version of the -B will be simulated?
A: The -B that we simulate spans an entire era, from the late 80s/ early 90s to late 90s/ early 2000s. As most Tomcats were "patchwork aircraft", exhibiting features found throughout all its iterations, we decided to recreate the B to what was most commonly found across all of them in that time period.

Q: What versions of the -A will be simulated?
A: Similar as with the -B, each version of the -A spans a certain time period, but to discern them easier, we divide them into the 135GR late version (same time period as the -B), which has more or less feature parity with the -B, except for engines, engine instrument panels and some minor differences; the 135GR early version (late 70s to early/mid 90s), which also features an older version of the RWR (the ALR-45) and the ECM page on the HSD; and the bonus 95GR IRIAF version, which is similar to the 135GR early (late 70s/ early 80s), with the difference of having no TCS, no ICLS/ACLS, no datalink, no Lantirn pod, only older weapons (no aim-9m, no aim-7M(/H), no aim-7F, no aim54A mk.60 and aim54C) and only dumb air to ground munitions. Each version will include skins for their dedicated period/country. All -A versions feature the TF-30 Engines.

 

Mirage 2000 and Viggen i agree.

If you are suggesting Hornet and Viper, I think the demand for the earlier variants will grow only after all this 1980s modules start to show up in numbers and catch the imagination more. Like early 1980s carrier air wing with Forrestal carrier, F-14A fighters, A-6E bombers and A-7E attackers from the Mediterranean campaign. 

Plus who knows which two modules Heatblur is releasing before the Intruder.

 

Mi-28 from 2010 is a pipe dream, especially now. It entered service just few years ago, together with "Guardian Apache" AH-64E. And sad thing is it entered service so late not because it is so modern, but because Russia doesn't have money to buy the modern equipment.

Edited October 3, 2021 by bies

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

These are both mid 90s at the earliest (AN/ALR-67), the F-14A-135-GR is really the only Soviet era variant we'll get for the USN.

 

How hard would it be to add the right RWR?

[Northstar98]

On 10/3/2021 at 2:29 PM, bies said:

FC3 F-15 AN/APG-63V)1 is just 1990s maintenance/reliability upgrade of the 1980s radar, not even close to 2000s (V)2 radars.

Nevertheless, it came to the F-15C (as in, actually in service with F-15Cs) in the early 2000s.

It is underperforming though, which may end up getting fixed, though this might just be FC3's simplifications working in favour.

But being pedantic about it, it's not a Soviet era, or even Cold War F-15C, of course that doesn't stop anyone from approximating an older variant.

On 10/3/2021 at 2:29 PM, bies said:

Heatblur themselves states their F-14 varisnts simulate aircrafts from late 1970s to early 2000s. Heatblur say even F-14B is proper for the Cold War scenarios without the LANTIRN. ALR-67 is an old 1980s RWR.

Okay, I guess my data (which admittedly isn't much) is off.

EDIT: I got muddled up, the F-14B that we have was fitted with AN/ALR-67 from the get go in the late 80s, it was the F-14A that only got it in the mid 90s.

So right now our F-14A-135-GR (late) covers the mid 90s, to the early-to-mid 2000s and the F-14B covers the late 80s, up to the early-to-mid 2000s (both late 90s - 2003 when equipped with LANTIRN).

The F-14A-135-GR (early) should cover somewhere between the mid-to-late 70s to the mid 90s.

At least AFAIK.

On 10/3/2021 at 2:29 PM, bies said:

ALR-45 is even older, in use since early 1970s.

And it's probably more appropriate for Cold War Tomcats.

On 10/3/2021 at 2:29 PM, bies said:

If you are suggesting Hornet and Viper, I think the demand for the earlier variants will grow only after all this 1980s modules start to show up in numbers and catch the imagination more.

More F-16 than F/A-18, but yeah.

On 10/3/2021 at 2:29 PM, bies said:

Mi-28 from 2010 is a pipe dream, especially now. It entered service just few years ago, together with "Guardian Apache" AH-64E. And sad thing is it entered service so late not because it is so modern, but because Russia doesn't have money to buy the modern equipment.

Agreed.

On 10/3/2021 at 5:03 PM, upyr1 said:

How hard would it be to add the right RWR?

Actually fairly difficult, being an oldern, analogue set, and HB are spending quite a bit of effort getting them accurate, as they did for the AN/ALR-67, see here for the AN/ALR-45/50 and here for what they did for the AN/ALR-67.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting, correction

[bies]

Usually i'm rather picky when it comes to variants when i create SP or MP missions, but what is the one single capability non-AMRAAM armed FC3 F-15C has which the Cold War F-15C MSIPII from 1985 and Desert Storm did not have?

In late 1980s it already had NCTR, built-in AN/ALQ-135, TWS mode, RAID mode, digital weapon panel, AN/ALR-56 RWR, overload warning system - this is all Cold War stuff on F-15C. It was even integrated with AMRAAM before Desert Storm, USAF tested short serie AIM-120A since 1986.

Just capability, like i.e. Viggen has 1990s TERNAV which can't be disabled in editor or Mirage 2000 has 1990s NCTR device which can't be disabled as well.

 

IIRC F-15C started to receive the new capabilities only in early-mid 2000s like AESA radar AN/APG-63(v)2, Link16 datalink, JHMCS - each of this would make it unsuitable for all my Cold War or Desert Storm scenarios, but not what our FC3 model has outside the Cold War or Desert Storm?

Maybe i don't know something, but i wouldn't like to be super picky when it comes to FC3 simplified modules, i know our F-15 lacks even some Cold War stuff like Magnavox AN/ALQ-128 which is classified even today or some radar modes like velocity search and rudimentary A/G capabilities.

But i can't find where our F-15C is more capable then the Cold War one.

Edited October 3, 2021 by bies

[Northstar98]

On 10/3/2021 at 7:33 PM, bies said:

Usually i'm rather picky when it comes to variants when i create SP or MP missions, but what is the one single capability non-AMRAAM armed FC3 F-15C has which the Cold War F-15C MSIPII from 1985 and Desert Storm did not have?

In late 1980s it already had NCTR, built-in AN/ALQ-135, TWS mode, RAID mode, digital weapon panel, AN/ALR-56 RWR, overload warning system - this is all Cold War stuff on F-15C. It was even integrated with AMRAAM before Desert Storm, USAF tested short serie AIM-120A since 1986.

Just capability, like i.e. Viggen has 1990s TERNAV which can't be disabled in editor or Mirage 2000 has 1990s NCTR device which can't be disabled as well.

 

IIRC F-15C started to receive the new capabilities only in early-mid 2000s like AESA radar AN/APG-63(v)2, Link16 datalink, JHMCS - each of this would make it unsuitable for all my Cold War or Desert Storm scenarios, but not what our FC3 model has outside the Cold War or Desert Storm?

Maybe i don't know something, but i wouldn't like to be super picky when it comes to FC3 simplified modules, i know our F-15 lacks even some Cold War stuff like Magnavox AN/ALQ-128 which is classified even today or some radar modes like velocity search and rudimentary A/G capabilities.

But i can't find where our F-15C is more capable then the Cold War one.

AFAIK it's the number of TWS tracks and number of simultaneous shootings where it has the advantage, not sure if that's modeled, again I'm being pedantic, I'll concede excessively pedantic for an FC3 module.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Northstar98
formatting

[IcedVenom]

6 hours ago, bies said:

Mi-28 from 2010 is a pipe dream, especially now. It entered service just few years ago, together with "Guardian Apache" AH-64E. And sad thing is it entered service so late not because it is so modern, but because Russia doesn't have money to buy the modern equipment.

As much as this may be true, I personally prefer the Mi-28 to the Apache. New modernized variants of the Mi-28 like the Mi-28NM are very much capable and just so cool. Early Ka-52 would be nice to get as a flyable module too, one day.

[bies]

2 hours ago, IcedVenom said:

As much as this may be true, I personally prefer the Mi-28 to the Apache. New modernized variants of the Mi-28 like the Mi-28NM are very much capable and just so cool. Early Ka-52 would be nice to get as a flyable module too, one day.

 

It's a matter of preference so i'm not going to question that, but in how many real full blown wars Mi-28 took part? How many enemy tanks destroyed? How many has been lost due to enemy fire? How many books man can read about its action, how many videos, documentaries, crew interviews etc? Probably close to zero.

 

Apache is catching imagination because it's a legendary helicopter, proven in many real wars, destroying hundreds of enemy tanks, AFV, soldiers also shoot down by the enemy, it generate all the videos on YT, TV documentaries, books, crew interviews, military reports etc.

Mi-28 is practically a hangar queen prototype, nobody know how it would perform in real combat, all we know about its capabilities are what some Russian commercial brochure says and it doesn't have all this real life experience thus catching imagination aura.

Me and you may buy such helicopter but it would be a fraction of Apache revenues plus it wouldn't be even close to Apache in terms of realism of systems modeling.

 

  

3 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

AFAIK it's the number of TWS tracks and number of simultaneous shootings where it has the advantage, not sure if that's modeled, again I'm being pedantic, I'll concede excessively pedantic for an FC3 module.

 

Not even that, our FC3 F-15C can bug only 4 targets at once, one PDT and up to 3 SDT, just lke the MSIPII from mid 1980s. Let alone without AMRAAM it can't perform simultaneous shootings at all. So even the radar is modeled after the Cold War one capabilities.

 

(2000s F-15C AN/APG-63(V)2 can track up to 14 targets at once according to publicly available data, and lets not forget everything regarding equipement more modern than ~Desert Storm may be intentionally false information, not to give any real information to the potential enemy)

Edited October 3, 2021 by bies