Weight of a Phoenix pylon?

[Diesel_Thunder]

I’ve been flying a lot as RIO with a friend of mine, we’re working real well together, and I really enjoy the RIO role. Since I run nearly all the checklists for us, I had a question about landing weights. 
 

I know 54k is max trap weight, and with an empty Turkey weighing 42k, that gives me 12k of fuel and ordanance I can bring home. Fuel is easy (totalizer is right in front of me). Weight of Sidewinder, Sparrow, and Phoenix missiles are known. What is unknown to me is how much the Phoenix pylons weigh. 
 

I’ve searched a lot for this number, never found a published weight for this item. I’ve anecdotally read that they weigh 250 lbs each, 1,000 lbs each, and various numbers between. 
 

What is the correct weight of a Phoenix pylon?

Edited August 21, 2021 by Diesel_Thunder

[BreaKKer]

4 minutes ago, Diesel_Thunder said:

I’ve been flying a lot as RIO with a friend of mine, we’re working real well together, and I really enjoy the RIO role. Since I run nearly all the checklists for us, I had a question about landing weights. 
 

I know 54k is max trap weight, and with an empty Turkey weighing 42k, that gives me 12k of fuel and ordanance to bring home. Fuel is easy (totalizer is right in front of me). Weight of Sidewinder, Sparrow, and Phoenix missiles are known. What is unknown to me is how much the Phoenix pylons weigh. 
 

I’ve searched a lot for this number, never found a published weight for this item. I’ve anecdotally read that they weigh 250 lbs each, 1,000 lbs each, and various numbers between. 
 

What is the correct weight of a Phoenix pylon?

~500. Source is from the F14AAP-1.1B 

[Diesel_Thunder]

Thanks @BreaKKer!

 

I imagine that is for each station? Are there any difference between stations? I think I read that 3 and 6 have the cooling system for the missile while 4, 5 and glove stations do not?

 

I ask because that document mentions an AIM-54 adapter/launcher that weighs 200 lbs. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Diesel_Thunder

[Spiceman]

The rails are 500 each, the fairings are 100 for both. The 200 pound adapter is the adapter for the wing stations.  

[Hector45]

1 hour ago, Diesel_Thunder said:

I’ve been flying a lot as RIO with a friend of mine, we’re working real well together, and I really enjoy the RIO role. Since I run nearly all the checklists for us, I had a question about landing weights. 
 

I know 54k is max trap weight, and with an empty Turkey weighing 42k, that gives me 12k of fuel and ordanance to bring home. Fuel is easy (totalizer is right in front of me). Weight of Sidewinder, Sparrow, and Phoenix missiles are known. What is unknown to me is how much the Phoenix pylons weigh. 
 

I’ve searched a lot for this number, never found a published weight for this item. I’ve anecdotally read that they weigh 250 lbs each, 1,000 lbs each, and various numbers between. 
 

What is the correct weight of a Phoenix pylon?

Can't answer your question but how do I find a RIO like you! 

[Callsign JoNay]

I think they actually weigh nothing in DCS. If you remove them from the mission editor it doesn't affect the gross weight, so I think they are baked into the weight of the airframe because it's about 44,000 lbs and other sources list a clean Tomcat at around 41-something.

[Spartan111sqn]

It should affect on weight and lift also. But i guess it is not modeled. 

[bies]

I think this pylons weight zero lbs at the moment in DCS. They do not change the mass at all in mission editor/armament menu.

 

This is probably a WIP feature since the mass of this pylons was a big deal especially in BFM according to the pilot interview. And other planes like i.e. F/A-18 have the mass and drag of the removable pylons modeled already.

[Diesel_Thunder]

On 8/21/2021 at 4:38 PM, Hector45 said:

Can't answer your question but how do I find a RIO like you! 

Thanks! My friend that I fly with is pretty good at flying and absolutely loves the Tomcat. I've always been an engineer/systems guy (I'm a retired U.S. Coast Guard Electronics Tech), so learning the backseat systems and operations was right up my alley. Definitely love the multicrew aspect of this aircraft.

 

 

 

Too make sure I have this correct (current pylon weights in DCS not withstanding)

 

The Phoenix pylons are 500 lbs and only go on stations 3, 4, 5, and 6.

 

The Phoenix adapters are 200 lbs, and only go on the gloves (stations 1 and 8).

 

The fairings are the missing link for me. I know they are 100 lbs. Where they go and how many is thing I'm missing. They do not appear to go with the adapters, only the pylons. And it also seems that they go on stations 3 and 6 (I think). The diagram below is how I think it's arranged. Can someone please verify that I have this correct?

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Diesel_Thunder

[BreaKKer]

1 hour ago, Diesel_Thunder said:

Thanks! My friend that I fly with is pretty good at flying and absolutely loves the Tomcat. I've always been an engineer/systems guy (I'm a retired U.S. Coast Guard Electronics Tech), so learning the backseat systems and operations was right up my alley. Definitely love the multicrew aspect of this aircraft.

 

 

 

Too make sure I have this correct (current pylon weights in DCS not withstanding)

 

The Phoenix pylons are 500 lbs and only go on stations 3, 4, 5, and 6.

 

The Phoenix adapters are 200 lbs, and only go on the gloves (stations 1 and 8).

 

The fairings are the missing link for me. I know they are 100 lbs. Where they go and how many is thing I'm missing. They do not appear to go with the adapters, only the pylons. And it also seems that they go on stations 3 and 6 (I think). The diagram below is how I think it's arranged. Can someone please verify that I have this correct?

 

 

Yep, that’s right

[Spiceman]

With one correction… what you’re pointing at on the wing stations in that bottom picture are the multi purpose pylons. The Phoenix adapter (or Sparrow adapter or Sidewinder adapter) bolts to it. HB doesn’t show it without the missile there. I’m not even sure they have a visual model for it. 
 

Edit: disregard… now that I look at it, that is indeed a Phoenix adapter on those pylons. My bad. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Spiceman

[BreaKKer]

1 hour ago, Spiceman said:

With one correction… what you’re pointing at on the wing stations in that bottom picture are the multi purpose pylons. The Phoenix adapter (or Sparrow adapter or Sidewinder adapter) bolts to it. HB doesn’t show it without the missile there. I’m not even sure they have a visual model for it. 

Would be nice to have bare LAU-138 pylons and those adapters. Though, we are dispensing chaff out of the LAU-7 at the moment... so low priority

[Hummingbird]

Interesting,  haven't checked it myself yet, but if the weight of these aren't modelled they definitely should be.

[bies]

On 8/24/2021 at 6:14 PM, Hummingbird said:

Interesting,  haven't checked it myself yet, but if the weight of these aren't modelled they definitely should be.

 

Yes so there is obviously one more qustion: is current DCS Tomcat empty weight correct to aircraft with pylons and as for now removing pylons is just cosmetics not decreasing the mass (like they were in i.e. F/A-18 at the beginning)? But this would hamper pylonless Sparrow configuration.

Or it's the opposite and aircraft with pylons should be heavier.

[captain_dalan]

Has anyone measured if they are included in the missile-loadout weight?

[Hummingbird]

6 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Has anyone measured if they are included in the missile-loadout weight?

 

I'll check later today Dalan.

[Hummingbird]

So I can confirm that there is no change in weight with or without pylons.

 

Starting with a completely clean aircraft, and adding just one AIM54, and the weight increases from 60,759 lbs to 61,800 lbs, so a 1,041 lbs increase for a single Phoenix.

 

Seeing as 1,041 lbs is the weight of the Phoenix missile itself according to all the sources I have, it would appear that the weight of the pylons isn't added.

 

Clean empty weight of the F-14B in DCS is 44,040 lbs.

 

Clean empty weight of the real F-14B/D is listed as 43,735 lbs in NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1.

 

@IronMike I think this is worth looking into.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Hummingbird

[captain_dalan]

2 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

So I can confirm that there is no change in weight with or without pylons.

 

Starting with a completely clean aircraft, and adding just one AIM54, and the weight increases from 60,759 lbs to 61,800 lbs, so a 1,041 lbs increase for a single Phoenix.

 

Seeing as 1,041 lbs is the weight of the Phoenix missile itself according to all the sources I have, it would appear that the weight of the pylons isn't added.

 

Clean empty weight of the F-14B in DCS is 44,040 lbs.

 

Clean empty weight of the real F-14B/D is listed as 43,735 lbs in NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1.

 

@IronMike I think this is worth looking into.

 

 

 

Aye, i did the check as well. No weight added per missile. The heaviest in the AIM-45C and the others are lighter, but only their weight is added.

Also, i tested this on the F-14A and they should be less then 41000lbs clean, while the one we have is 42600 or so. So, i can see how the pylon weight could be permanently attached to the plane. Anywhere from 1600 to 2500 lbs. 

[captain_dalan]

3 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

 

Clean empty weight of the real F-14B/D is listed as 43,735 lbs in NAVAIR 01−F14AAD−1.

 

@IronMike I think this is worth looking into.

 

 

 

ADDDENDUM: the NAVAIR states the the gross weight of a clean plane at 43600 for the B (my might be an older version), but with the sub pylons included. By sub pylons, they mean the palettes, right? 

[Hummingbird]

12 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

ADDDENDUM: the NAVAIR states the the gross weight of a clean plane at 43600 for the B (my might be an older version), but with the sub pylons included. By sub pylons, they mean the palettes, right? 

 

F-14B vs F-14B+ & D maybe? 

 

I just had a look at the B+ & D manual, which lists 43,735 lbs. Perhaps 135 lbs of extra avionics. 

[BreaKKer]

33 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

 

F-14B vs F-14B+ & D maybe? 

 

I just had a look at the B+ & D manual, which lists 43,735 lbs. Perhaps 135 lbs of extra avionics. 

The D had 1000 pounds worth of extra avionics

The “empty weight’ that you see in those documents are purely the fleet standard at the time. So the early F-14A docs say a much lighter weight because the Phoenix rails weren’t a part of the fleet standard of the time, because they didn’t run them a lot. The F-14B and F-14D weights are all Phoenix rail, possibly LANTIRN, and bag equipped jets, because they never took them off

[Spiceman]

13 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

By sub pylons, they mean the palettes, right? 

I would think that it has to mean the multi purpose pylons. They are standard equipment. All other rails and adapters are per-mission, but no airplane is ever without the multi purpose pylons. 

[captain_dalan]

15 minutes ago, Spiceman said:

I would think that it has to mean the multi purpose pylons. They are standard equipment. All other rails and adapters are per-mission, but no airplane is ever without the multi purpose pylons. 

But if the pallets were never removed: 
 

1 hour ago, BreaKKer said:

The D had 1000 pounds worth of extra avionics

The “empty weight’ that you see in those documents are purely the fleet standard at the time. So the early F-14A docs say a much lighter weight because the Phoenix rails weren’t a part of the fleet standard of the time, because they didn’t run them a lot. The F-14B and F-14D weights are all Phoenix rail, possibly LANTIRN, and bag equipped jets, because they never took them off

That would make sense. The earliest manuals i have read state as low as 37000+pds of empty weight for the F-14A. Compare that with 41000-42000 for the latter ones. 

[Hummingbird]

11 hours ago, BreaKKer said:

The D had 1000 pounds worth of extra avionics

The “empty weight’ that you see in those documents are purely the fleet standard at the time. So the early F-14A docs say a much lighter weight because the Phoenix rails weren’t a part of the fleet standard of the time, because they didn’t run them a lot. The F-14B and F-14D weights are all Phoenix rail, possibly LANTIRN, and bag equipped jets, because they never took them off

 

Interesting, well that would put the empty weight quite a bit too high in DCS.

 

Probably important getting this right before performance tweaking is finalized, unless there's something we're missing here? @IronMike @fat creason

Edited August 28, 2021 by Hummingbird

[BreaKKer]

2 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

Interesting, well that would put the empty weight quite a bit too high in DCS.

 

Probably important getting this right before performance tweaking is finalized, unless there's something we're missing here? @IronMike @fat creason

 

TF-30s don't weigh the same as F110s