F18 Radar Lock & Unlock Behavior

[Jenson]

Hey guys, 

 

I noted that when i tried to lock/softlock and unlock a target: 

1. in RWS mode, if soft-lock (press TDC down once) on a target, then click unlock (undesignate) button, radar will soft-lock the 2nd target near the primary target, if click unlock again, radar will drop 2nd target. 

2. in RWS mode, if solid-lock (press TDC down twice) on a target, then click unlock, the radar will drop the target but then auto-lock the target quickly (abt 1-2 sec) again.  

 

So the only way I could completely drop an "already-designated" target is by clicking the "RESET" OSB, do you guys experience the same or did I do something wrong?

 

Thanks again!   

[Tholozor]

1. Not doing anything wrong, this is correct behavior. Keep in mind that even though you're using RWS, LTWS is engaged by default, so you're actually in pseudo-TWS. Pressing the NWS/Undesignate button will step the L&S through ranked track files. RESET will clear the L&S. TWS behaves the same.

2. Do you mean it goes back into STT, or just re-designates the same contact as L&S?

Edited August 23, 2021 by Tholozor

[Jenson]

14 minutes ago, Tholozor said:

2. Do you mean it goes back into STT, or just re-designates the same contact as L&S?

 

 

Thanks Tholozor.

 

I cannot recall it clearly, I need to test it again tomorrow morning. 

 

But it just looks like after undesignated a target, the radar enters an auto-lock mode. (sorry no trackfile at this moment) 

[Flia]

3 hours ago, Jenson said:

 

Thanks Tholozor.

 

I cannot recall it clearly, I need to test it again tomorrow morning. 

 

But it just looks like after undesignated a target, the radar enters an auto-lock mode. (sorry no trackfile at this moment) 

Yes same behaviour here. Always after undesignate command radar autolocks another radar contat. Only way to fix this is unlock then  press reset on right MFD.

[Tholozor]

Would need to see a track then, the description doesn't give me enough info.

[Harker]

1. This is correct behavior. When you have an L&S designated but you're not in STT, the undesignate button will step through MSI trackfiles in order of descending rank (or swap between the L&S and DT2, if you have a DT2 designated). To completely remove the L&S (and DT2), you need to select RSET.

2. This is also correct-ish behavior. When in STT from RWS or TWS and the undesignate button (or RTS) is pressed, the radar will simply exit STT and return to its previous mode. It'll keep the L&S designated.

The issue with 2 is that the L&S shouldn't need to be detected by the radar again, to become designated after exiting STT, it should simply remain designated upon exiting STT. This is because, in DCS, MSI processing stops as the radar enters STT from RWS or TWS, whereas this shouldn't be the case. MSI trackfiles are not the same as radar contacts, although in DCS, the essentially are the one and the same. In reality, they're two different systems and the radar is merely one of the contributors of the MSI system.

[S. Low]

Learnt something today. Thanks. Was wondering why NWS/undesignate cycled tracks even in RWS.

[Jenson]

23 hours ago, Tholozor said:

2. Do you mean it goes back into STT, or just re-designates the same contact as L&S?

 

 

Just checked this morning, if solid-lock a target into STT and then press "undesignate" button, it will drop the STT first but then automatically re-designates the same contact as L&S. 

17 hours ago, Harker said:

1. This is correct behavior. When you have an L&S designated but you're not in STT, the undesignate button will step through MSI trackfiles in order of descending rank (or swap between the L&S and DT2, if you have a DT2 designated). To completely remove the L&S (and DT2), you need to select RSET.

2. This is also correct-ish behavior. When in STT from RWS or TWS and the undesignate button (or RTS) is pressed, the radar will simply exit STT and return to its previous mode. It'll keep the L&S designated.

The issue with 2 is that the L&S shouldn't need to be detected by the radar again, to become designated after exiting STT, it should simply remain designated upon exiting STT. This is because, in DCS, MSI processing stops as the radar enters STT from RWS or TWS, whereas this shouldn't be the case. MSI trackfiles are not the same as radar contacts, although in DCS, the essentially are the one and the same. In reality, they're two different systems and the radar is merely one of the contributors of the MSI system.

 

Thanks, I guess in AA mode, the undesignate button isn't a really an undisgnate button, but rather a "return" or "cycle" button. 

[Svend_Dellepude]

Undesignate might not be the right name for that button, since it does different things depending on the mode you're in. In A-G though, it does undesignate.

If you don't have any target designated in A-A, pressing undesignate will soft lock the #1 ranked contact.

[Jenson]

1 hour ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

Undesignate might not be the right name for that button, since it does different things depending on the mode you're in. In A-G though, it does undesignate.

If you don't have any target designated in A-A, pressing undesignate will soft lock the #1 ranked contact.

 

 

I'm with DCS that we should replicates the real life jet, yet it's a little weird that (in real life) the hornet HOTAS doesn't have a function to drop all designated/locked contacts at once. (My thinking is the designer/engineer of the system might pick up something like hold the "NWS/undesignate" button for 3 seconds to drop the lock) 

[Harker]

 
 
I'm with DCS that we should replicates the real life jet, yet it's a little weird that (in real life) the hornet HOTAS doesn't have a function to drop all designated/locked contacts at once. (My thinking is the designer/engineer of the system might pick up something like hold the "NWS/undesignate" button for 3 seconds to drop the lock) 

You can select RSET with the TDC and depress, just like you'd do with a PC mouse. So it can be done through the HOTAS. Plus, in the real Hornet, the TDC can be slewed much faster and thus it's easy to click things around. Sure, it might be faster to have a dedicated HOTAS control for it, but if you're in a situation where you don't need any contact designated, you have plenty of time to slew and click RSET.

[CBStu]

6 hours ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

If you don't have any target designated in A-A, pressing undesignate will soft lock the #1 ranked contact.

Dang do they try to make things as unintuitive as they possibly can or do it accidentally? And BTW is that the way it works in DCS or in the actual jet or in both?

[Svend_Dellepude]

Certainly in DCS and I suppose IRL since that's what the module is modelled after. But it makes sense because you would probably soft lock the #1 ranked target anyway since that should be that primary thread based on a number of thing. Then you can just tap your way through the ranks to get info on the various threats on radar using just the pinky. Even during maneuvers, which makes it difficult to use the cursor.

 

2 hours ago, Harker said:

the TDC can be slewed much faster

 

Just to add to what @Harker wrote. The TDC control IRL is force sensitive so you have a completely different kind of control over the cursor. Much faster response since there is no travel.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Svend_Dellepude

[Jak525]

Undesignate actually designating is pretty funny but it is correct. You can call it the NWS or pinky button for less confusion. As Harker mentioned though, leaving STT should not kill your trackfile, it should be a smooth uninterrupted transition. Quite annoying. A relatively sweeping overhaul of the MSI trackfile system I think is required to fix this type of thing and others.

 

As for undesignating the L&S via HOTAS, as Harker said you have RSET. Really there is not a big need to do this. Having an L&S is not a "soft lock", there is really no such thing. It will prioritize that trackfile for AUTO centering in TWS, but otherwise, the radar is not shooting any special beams at jt or changing its operation or whatever. STT is a different story which lights the RWR up - and you have the ability to leave that by hitting the Undesignate button.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Jak525

[Lorenzo.D]

Also for the ACM mode for unlock must i push rset? And for autoacquisition mode?

I have some problem to understand how unlock when i lock a friend contact in dogfight.

 

 

[dorianR666]

On 8/24/2021 at 5:22 PM, CBStu said:

Dang do they try to make things as unintuitive as they possibly can or do it accidentally?

you never ever need to "fully undesignate" a trackfile. its a pointless operation, thats why there is no hotas button for it.

edit: just realized this is 2 years old. oops.

6 minutes ago, Lorenzo.D said:

Also for the ACM mode for unlock must i push rset?

no

Edited February 24, 2023 by dorianR666

[Lorenzo.D]

no

How?
I Need to know in auto acquisition mode and acm mode

Inviato dal mio CPH2219 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Hazardpro]

4 hours ago, Lorenzo.D said:

How?
I Need to know in auto acquisition mode and acm mode

Inviato dal mio CPH2219 utilizzando Tapatalk
 

Use the undesignate button to command RTS (Return to search) from STT or ACM. It's probably more useful to think of the undesignate button as the RTS button in AA master mode. I think you can also force a return to ACM from STT with the SCS but haven't tested it.

I've also read the Super Hornet has another ACM search mode you can return to out of STT where it searches around the STT to try and move the lock to another target, but that's a different aircraft with different implementation.

[Harker]

Use the undesignate button to command RTS (Return to search) from STT or ACM. It's probably more useful to think of the undesignate button as the RTS button in AA master mode. I think you can also force a return to ACM from STT with the SCS but haven't tested it.
I've also read the Super Hornet has another ACM search mode you can return to out of STT where it searches around the STT to try and move the lock to another target, but that's a different aircraft with different implementation.

The last thing you're talking about is called Bump acquisition and it's been a feature in the Legacy Hornet since at least the early 2000s. We just don't have it in DCS yet.

With the radar in STT, using the SCS in ACM, it rejects the original target for 2 seconds. It's also available in AACQ and it rejects the current STT target. In both cases, it'll re-acquire the original target, if another target is not available within the time limit.