Engine management help in the vertical

[StankFaust]

I notice that when I am in a dogfight (usually instant action against the dora) if there's a situation where we are both getting slow into the vertical and i hold for just a split second too long to try for a shot and the controls get mushy or I even stall, that the engine instantly overheats and soon gives up the fight.

 

I've tried chopping throttle and rpm when I notice that I've slowed too much, but perhaps Im too slow on the controls.

 

Any advice on engine managmeent through the speed changes encountered in a dogfight would be great.

 

Thanks

[grafspee]

Open cooling shutter if you are going vertical. And dont get high hopes with ai. I tried dora vs dora and i cant keep vertical with other dora w/o overheating

[razo+r]

Reduce power earlier.

 

You know you will go vertical, you know you will loose speed, you know the engine will overheat, so do something against that. Perhaps don't even go vertical in the first place if you see you're slow.

 

[grafspee]

@razo+r Yes, you covered the topic completely

[PD919]

If coming off a cold start make sure you mapped your RAM air levers to an axis command or you will overheat real quick.

[Thorns]

When is this problem going to be address from Eagle Dynamics?  Can't even do a hammerhead stall, and can't even follow an enemy plane into the vertical without the cooling system going into overheat with the oil and coolant doors full open, and ram air in cold.  Check the people who flew the Mustang in WWII in combat, and you will find the Mustang never overheated this quick...it's not even fun to fly the Mustang at this point...so much is broken in DCS!  Please review, you are losing WWII customers to IL-2!

[razo+r]

As usual, WIP.

[TheCoyoteHunter]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:30 PM, PD919 said:

If coming off a cold start make sure you mapped your RAM air levers to an axis command or you will overheat real quick.

I'm new to the P-51D, how do you map your RAM air levers to an axis? There is nothing under the axis binds that says RAM air.

I currently have them mapped to a switch on my HOTAS, and it moves the handles in the cockpit, but I read somewhere that just because it moves in the cockpit it isn't actually doing anything.

Thanks,

Coyote

 

[razo+r]

1 minute ago, TheCoyoteHunter said:

I'm new to the P-51D, how do you map your RAM air levers to an axis? There is nothing under the axis binds that says RAM air.

I currently have them mapped to a switch on my HOTAS, and it moves the handles in the cockpit, but I read somewhere that just because it moves in the cockpit it isn't actually doing anything.

Thanks,

Coyote

 

It's called Cold Air Control or similar.

[TheCoyoteHunter]

OK, thanks

Coyote

[Reflected]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:16 PM, razo+r said:

Reduce power earlier.

 

You know you will go vertical, you know you will loose speed, you know the engine will overheat, so do something against that. Perhaps don't even go vertical in the first place if you see you're slow.

 

1) my engine dies even if I chop the throttle before running out of speed

2) the AI ALWAYS goes vertical. It knows nothing else.

 

 

[Doughguy]

1) stay above 150.

if youre going vertical and drop below 150mph break away and do a dive as necessary to cool off.

mustang isnt really a dog fighter. its a racecar.  its performes best in high altitudes and higher speeds. thats where it has the advantage.

eg i have no probs with the 109 above 16k ft unless the ai is set to some absurde difficulty levels. ai levels screw around with flight characteristics. so its not the best to compare human flown mustang performance vs ai versions.

as i see it most online engagements take part below 7k ft. thats where the 190 and 109 dominate anyway. you dont fight on your terms. thats where the krauts will outrun outclimb and outdive you. play on your terms. stay high. stay fast. 

at 20k ft even if a dora is behind you or a k4 a simple turn will force them to break of whilest you can creep on their 6.

people get their target lock too often and follow to the deck. and then wonder why they get shot up. well... played yourself.

if you go down go fast, aim well, fire few bursts, climb, reaquire target, and observe.

2) ok its known ai does that. its predictable. exploit that. stay high. observe. dont follow and let yourself get dragged down to the deck.

ive killed enough 109s going vertical that ive caught off guard at their stallpoint just by loitering and jumping them at the right moment.

sitting ducks.

the stang is no miracle machine as perceived by popular media. its sure better than early ww2 fighters but no piston engine plane of ww2 could skyrocket upwards infinately w/o getting into problems at a point.

this was with other "sims" aswell.

most players dont really have the patience. thats whats getting them killed. was so with r/l pilots aswell.

eg if youre in alt advantage with the stang and jump 109s or alike, the usual thing to counter this was for them to dive away as it does this better than the stang.

if you now follow down for too long below 7k ft youre gonna have some hard time. your ego wants the kill.

instead break away if at 18k ft. loiter. observe. its a test of nerves. if the 109 pilot is cool he will try to build up distance and jump you on another approach or call it a day and fight another day. if hes stupid or gets his ego take control he'll asap reengage and climb high to your playground. deprived of all his energy. and there you are. circling at 23k ft.. at 250/300 mph. engine purring. jumping at this straggling fool. 

also remember this is a sim not r/l. in r/l people would bail out or disengange way faster to safe their ass... you dont have to fear dire consequences in dcs...

 

granted the dm or other systems might have kinks but one can adapt to that. also fly your plane right. im no mustang expert but its flight characteristics and performance make total sense in what it was designed for. an high alt long range escort plane.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Doughguy

[Reflected]

This is great advice for 'gaming the game'. But it doesn't make it right. So IRL P-51 pilots were forbidden to pull up past 60-70 degrees of pitch, because that would cause the engine to die? I hardly think so.

[razo+r]

You can pull past 60 degrees of pitch. You just need to have plenty of speed or go idle early enough. 

 

And you know the good old, most used words for DCS. Work in progress. New cooling is planned. So for now play DCS like DCS and not real life because of so many limiting factors/bugs of DCS. 

[grafspee]

If it was a limitation factor, how the hell pilot could know what pitch is ?

[Doughguy]

 pitch doesnt matter as much as airspeed. 

yes you can  climb past 60°. no probs. but you have to watch your speed. as said those old machines no matter what model cant climb at high pitches infinately no mater what model it is. and some do better than others.

its a technical evolution.

the stang needs the airspeed to cool its engine. if that fails (cause of stalls) the engine is fried.

happens to the axis fighters aswell. just not as fast due to different construction and strange ai settings.

the ai flys basically flawless in higher settings and alternative physics.

 

is it modelled right? idk. but we gotta trust ed on that theyve modelled it along the existing data. if that fits it should be right.

but then again... how do you want to model correct ultra realistic avionics of a modern jet with all the secrecy around it? you cant. its an approximation.

ww2 fighters arent really shrouded by secrecy anymore, only lost/limited data available.

so yeah untill the new cooling sytem is implemented you gotta play along current rules.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Doughguy

[Reflected]

Is a new cooling system really coming? I missed that one.

[Doughguy]

yes. nineline said this few time iirc. however i dont think it will change characteristics entirely. so in the end youll still have to fly the pony like now but with a bit more leeway.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Doughguy

[PD919]

If I want to stall in the Mustang I cut the throttle once I go under 150 mph.  My engine is usually fine.  You just have to cut it earlier than you think.

[M1Combat]

The 51 engine is far too fragile. No way it was like this IRL. 

No. Way.

 

That said it's still my fav. WWII fighter here :).  I love it.  I just wish the engine wasn't so dang fragile :).

[Doughguy]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb M1Combat:

The 51 engine is far too fragile. No way it was like this IRL. 

No. Way.

 

That said it's still my fav. WWII fighter here :).  I love it.  I just wish the engine wasn't so dang fragile :).

it was tho. listen to or read some accounts of mustang veterans.

if you screw the cooling in any way, eg overheating or damage, youre out.

same veterans also comment that the mustang wasnt a good climber.

but i guess veterans are wrong eh....

if i fight with the stang the way it was intended i havent really got much trouble with the axis fighters unless i do something stupid... e.g. climb contest or turn fight going up at low speeds with an axis fighter.

if you cross that out of your equasion you rule out half of your probs in the stang.

each plane has its quirks. keep that in mind. the mustang was no miracle plane.

stay high. always. supercharger lamp indicates your playground area. stay above your enemy at any height regardless. 

do not engage in extended climbs, make wide circles while shallow climbing instead. this way you can catch the oppo loosing momentum on its peak on the climb back after your turn or you dive down onto him if he runs for the deck.

if you fight above 20k you can out run and out turn the axis fighters. so if one is hanging on your ass extend in a straight line. dont climb dont dive.

if hes to close make sure you have enough speed and turn into him with high g turns and extend eventually give it a burst on head on. even from far away to plow the road. one rule of dicta boelcke.

up high the axis fighters arent as manouverable at given speeds. use that.

watch your cooling temp. down on the deck or generally below 7k ft its where the axis fighters rule.

open your oil and coolant flaps. 

the axis fighters will turn alot at low speed. 

if you engage in a deck dog fight make sure to pull up a bit when in a turn. youll most likely never place a good hit with the stang if in a high g turn with a 109 or 190.  but if you add a shallow climb instead you can dive down on him or circle and wait for a better shot. think of it as a flat yo yo motion.

feel free to correct me since im flying only since september and its been a steep learning curve but once i started to fly the stang with its quirks in the back of my head i generally had much less problems. especially with the engine. and ive been running it on full power (cept wep) more than 15 mins on many occassions.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Doughguy

[grafspee]

I use auto cooling for both oil and coolant (tested it many many times and i don't agree with statement that auto mode do not open cooling doors and lead to overheat, this is not true, system always opens them fully when needed, only problem is actuation speed for coolant doors which is way to slow compare to how coolant gains temp and here i smell some miss modeling, i'm sure that system would be redesigned if things were like in DCS), when flying with both wide open you are sacrificing quite a chunk of performance, another con is high chance to overcool engine many times mentioned in Flight manual but this is something that DCS players don't need to worry about since engine in DCS does not care what coolant temp is, throttle reaction is exactly the same at 0c and at 100c.

High alt performance advantage is not so big over D-9 and K-4 since those planes are German response to high performing fighters like P-51 so at height they don't fall far like A-8 or G-6 109 do.

Maneuverability degrade with alt for all planes, due to average lower IAS, simply planes can not reach those speeds at high alt, so some aerobatic maneuvers become unavailable at height, try loop the plane at 35k, maybe Spitfire is capable of this but sure very difficulty . Planes with generally high low speed performance like Spitfire will shine at high alt especial when equipped with excellent engine

and due to average higher mach number.

And here comes the main issue about P-51, since cooling system looks very inefficient, at speeds 200mph it sometime struggle to cool engine, at 35k don't expect to have +300mph IAS and when turning speed drops to 200mph or less here where temps goes sky high.

Edited December 16, 2021 by grafspee

[M1Combat]

5 hours ago, Doughguy said:

it was tho

Well...  I don't have much problem fighting in the 51 and if I did I sure as eff wouldn't be blaming the aircraft for my problems...  I know it's strengths and weaknesses.  I use them to my advantage.  Some lack of performance isn't why I say the engine is too fragile.

 

I say that because there's just simply NO Way that the real pilots have suffered the same percentage of failed engines as I have while using proper technique in the Mustang.  The 51 would have been retired friend.  I mean...  you really think you can beat the ever loving stuffing out of every other WW2 plane in the sim...  but the Mustang was this fragile?  Somehow that's correct?  No way dude.  The engine in the spit is "fairly similar" yeah??  Why no probs with that one?

[Doughguy]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb grafspee:

I use auto cooling for both oil and coolant (tested it many many times and i don't agree with statement that auto mode do not open cooling doors and lead to overheat, this is not true, system always opens them fully when needed, only problem is actuation speed for coolant doors which is way to slow compare to how coolant gains temp and here i smell some miss modeling, i'm sure that system would be redesigned if things were like in DCS), when flying with both wide open you are sacrificing quite a chunk of performance, another con is high chance to overcool engine many times mentioned in Flight manual but this is something that DCS players don't need to worry about since engine in DCS does not care what coolant temp is, throttle reaction is exactly the same at 0c and at 100c.

High alt performance advantage is not so big over D-9 and K-4 since those planes are German response to high performing fighters like P-51 so at height they don't fall far like A-8 or G-6 109 do.

Maneuverability degrade with alt for all planes, due to average lower IAS, simply planes can not reach those speeds at high alt, so some aerobatic maneuvers become unavailable at height, try loop the plane at 35k, maybe Spitfire is capable of this but sure very difficulty . Planes with generally high low speed performance like Spitfire will shine at high alt especial when equipped with excellent engine

and due to average higher mach number.

And here comes the main issue about P-51, since cooling system looks very inefficient, at speeds 200mph it sometime struggle to cool engine, at 35k don't expect to have +300mph IAS and when turning speed drops to 200mph or less here where temps goes sky high.

 

i use auto cooling aswell. only down low i tend to open it manuall. especially if i engage in some turn fights as youve stated: down low and slow at around 200mph the temp easily hits the red mark. hence rather disengage and fly rather larger circles to let the engine cool or quick turns and straight flight. the temp wont rise abruptly but gradually. more if you fly 10+ mins in tight turns on the deck.

yes the performance in high alts over the germans is very close but the stang has the edge there as far as ive experienced. yes you can only do wide circles at slow speed up there but thats really all it takes. the anton and dora cant really keep up with your turns. the dora is slightly slower than you. k4 is close in both aspects but can be outrun. no need to worry about cooling up there. i leave the coolant flaps on auto.

 

@m1combat

no hard feelings there. the stangs getting too much beating around here for my taste. but thats just my opinion.

but since you and i for sure arent vets i cant comment other what i read/hear/see. otherwise its guessing or simply having opinions.

the spit and pony might have the same or at least similar engine but what about the rest? theres more to the system than just the engine.

more over, the spit had its own quirks etc and the yanks surly had their fair share of do's n donts before engaging combat. also keep in mind that not every pilot actually had the chance to go full speed in the stang and engage in dogfights especially in the later stages of war when opposition was rather meak.

but as i said im no ww2 pilot and cant say nothing about the authenticity. i can only go by what vets say and that is that the stang had aforementioned problems.

if that was known, and it was for sure, then tactics and schooling included this... after all you dont have continues in rl... so you are less prone to doing stupid things in your plane.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Doughguy

[grafspee]

@Doughguy Yes, when speed is steady it is not a problem. Problem appear when speed is rapidly reduced then shutter doors won't keep up so, like you said, it is good to just pre open them before.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by grafspee