Can the rear sit pilot fire a Hellfire missile without TEDAC on an Apache longbow?

[mxgunshot]

Can the rear sit pilot fire a Hellfire missile without TEDAC on an Apache longbow?

[Remco]

Fire, yes. But you can't lase from the back seat, so only remote engagement with someone else lasing.

[Bedouin]

So you can't lase your own target from the rear, then what about the radar guided Hellfire, can you use them from the backseat and chose the target or do you again need someone else to provide the target lock..?

[Raptor9]

28 minutes ago, Bedouin said:

So you can't lase your own target from the rear, then what about the radar guided Hellfire, can you use them from the backseat and chose the target or do you again need someone else to provide the target lock..?

Only the CPG has direct control of the TADS, so if the TADS is required to designate a target, only the CPG can do it. So the backseat can physically fire a laser-guided missile, but will still need someone else to lase for it, whether that be his own CPG or an external asset.

The pilot can fire the radar-guided version of Hellfire using the FCR from the backseat without CPG interaction (open source).

[kgillers3]

Or you can launch it like a terrible rocket third option

[Raptor9]

13 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

Or you can launch it like a terrible rocket third option

That is a "technique"... 

[kgillers3]

Just now, Raptor9 said:

That is a "technique"... 

technique only lol

[Raptor9]

I mean, there have been several times when I'm completely dry on ammo and out of ordnance in my DCS F-16 so I've fired Sidewinders and AMRAAMs on ground targets hoping for a random hit.

It's only ever hit one target, and didn't destroy it.

[kgillers3]

At least you got it to hit, I can’t say I have or tried yet. But soon now that I’m thinking of it 

[fargo007]

Almost certainly this will be an AI (George) function. Will be interesting to see how it's implemented.

[kgillers3]

4 hours ago, fargo007 said:

Almost certainly this will be an AI (George) function. Will be interesting to see how it's implemented.

Agreed, it'll be interesting how that dynamic works. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by kgillers3

[Wawar]

12 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

Only the CPG has direct control of the TADS, so if the TADS is required to designate a target, only the CPG can do it. So the backseat can physically fire a laser-guided missile, but will still need someone else to lase for it, whether that be his own CPG or an external asset.

The pilot can fire the radar-guided version of Hellfire using the FCR from the backseat without CPG interaction (open source).

So, what is the backseater collective cursor for ? Only the TSD? Thought that the backseater could SOI the TADS on one of the MPDs and slew the TADS with his collective cursor. 

[Raptor9]

5 minutes ago, Wawar said:

So, what is the backseater collective cursor for ? Only the TSD? Thought that the backseater could SOI the TADS on one of the MPDs and slew the TADS with his collective cursor. 

The collective cursor control simply operates the MPD cursor for selecting MPD options/commands, clicking on waypoints on the TSD, etc.  There is no SOI logic in the AH-64 based on what MPD page is shown or what screen the crewmember is moving the cursor on.  The backseater can bring up the TADS video on one of the MPD's in the pilot cockpit, but it's only for situational awareness of what the gunner is targeting; the pilot has no direct control of the TADS.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Raptor9

[Wawar]

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

The collective cursor control simply operates the MPD cursor for selecting MPD options/commands, clicking on waypoints on the TSD, etc.  There is no SOI logic in the AH-64 based on what MPD page is shown or what screen the crewmember is moving the cursor on.  The backseater can bring up the TADS video on one of the MPD's in the pilot cockpit, but it's only for situational awareness of what the gunner is targeting; the pilot has no direct control of the TADS.

 

Thank you for your answer. 

About the SOI, what about the "Cursor Display Select" button ? Isn't it used to choose which display will accept the pilot imputs? (aka SOI)

 

So, you could bring up the TADS display on a MPD, but it is not linked with the slew control of the backseat collective ? It just ignore the "Selected" display? (aka SOI) 

Same question about the frontseat collective. Would the frontseat be able to steer TADS from his HOTAS, rather than with TEDAC? Thought the TEDAC steering controls were "redundant" with the front HOTAS. 

Also, I heard several times both crew could exchange the control of TADS/PNVS. Maybe it concerns the IHADSS slave. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Wawar

[Remco]

Cursor Display Select just switches your cursor between the left and right MPD's

[Raptor9]

21 minutes ago, Wawar said:

So, you could bring up the TADS display on a MPD, but it is not linked with the slew control of the backseat collective ? It just ignore the "Selected" display? (aka SOI) 

There is no slew control in the backseat for anything except the MPD cursor. The TADS display is just a repeater display to show the TADS video. Again, there is no SOI in the Apache. What MPD has the cursor on it has nothing to do with what system/sensor is being used or manipulated.

21 minutes ago, Wawar said:

Same question about the frontseat collective. Would the frontseat be able to steer TADS from its HOTAS, rather than with TEDAC? Thought the TEDAC steering controls were "redundant" with the front HOTAS.

No, neither collective has any sight/sensor steering commands. The CPG steers the TADS with the thumbforce controller on the TEDAC grips, which is separate from the cursor control on the TEDAC grips. Yes, some controls are replicated between the CPG's collective grip and the TEDAC grips, to allow some functions to be used whether he is actually the one flying or not.

21 minutes ago, Wawar said:

Also, I heard several times both crew could exchange the control of TADS/PNVS. Maybe it concerns the IHADSS slave. 

There is a separate switch in each cockpit called NVS Mode that is used to enable using the FLIR turrets in the PNVS/TADS for night flight. If the pilot flips the switch from OFF to NORM, the PNVS turret is activated and slaved to his head. Wherever he looks, the turret follows, projecting FLIR imagery from the PNVS turret into his HDU eyepiece. Likewise, if the CPG flips his NVS switch from OFF to NORM, the same thing happens with the TADS FLIR for the CPG.

However, this prevents the TADS from being used to target because it is being used by the CPG to fly. There is a button on the collective grip that allows either crewmember to initiate a "swap" of their FLIR sensors. When this happens, the TADS turret is now slaved to the Pilot's head with the corresponding FLIR imagery now coming from the TADS FLIR, and the PNVS is slaved to the CPG's head with the CPG seeing the PNVS video in his HDU. This allow's the Pilot to rapidly take the TADS from the CPG if the PNVS fails or is shot off, since not crashing when flying at low altitudes at night is the priority task. So yes the Pilot can use the TADS, but only as a night-flying sensor in lieu of the PNVS, not for targeting.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Raptor9

[Wawar]

That's clear ! Thanks 

[Raptor9]

To clarify some key terms in the AH-64:

A "Sight" is used to aim weapons, but a "Sensor" is used to detect stuff. So the TADS is a sight that has several sensors on it, like FLIR and TV. The HMD (Helmet Mounted Display) is a sight, but the sensor is either the crewmember's Mk1 eyeball, or FLIR if at night.

When the acronyms NVS or PNVS are used, the "Night Vision" portions refer to FLIR/thermal systems that provide vision that let's you see at night, which is not the same as "night vision goggles" that most people associate with light amplification for seeing at night. Two different types of "night vision" systems, except one uses thermal/FLIR and the other uses light amplification.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Raptor9

[kgillers3]

Kind of a dumbed down way of thinking about the cursor, imagine a mouse for the computer, as stated the cursor select just quickly moves it left or right between the screens and centers it, I find myself using it more often than not to just find the cursor 

[stormrider]

19 hours ago, fargo007 said:

Almost certainly this will be an AI (George) function. Will be interesting to see how it's implemented.

15 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

Agreed, it'll be interesting how that dynamic works. 

 

More than that, it will be interesting to see how VAICOM Pro will implement that:

"George, please fire that laser of yours at that target, would you, thanks mate"

[FalcoGer]

Could you steer the laser by using TADS as HMU source? Or will it turn off the laser automagically? I guess it doesn't really matter since the front seat has to turn the laser on in the first place and it can't just be on continuously.

[Sabre_Ewan]

4 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

Could you steer the laser by using TADS as HMU source? Or will it turn off the laser automagically? I guess it doesn't really matter since the front seat has to turn the laser on in the first place and it can't just be on continuously.

I can't remember where I saw it written, but I'm sure someone said that when the pilot takes TADS, it takes it away from the front seat and they can't see it anymore. I'd assume that means their controls are also disabled, in which case there'd be no laser. Even if the laser trigger did still work, the pilot would have to tell them when to fire it and when to stop because they wouldn't see anything.

[Remco]

10 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

Could you steer the laser by using TADS as HMU source? Or will it turn off the laser automagically? I guess it doesn't really matter since the front seat has to turn the laser on in the first place and it can't just be on continuously.

Nope, selecting TADS as a sight for the backseat is purely for flying only has a backup to PNVS, it'll work exactly like the PNVS but just be using the TADS FLIR camera instead. Besides that the backseat has no laser trigger, there is a weapon trigger on the cyclic only, the laser trigger is only on the right hand grip of the TEDAC.