reported LOST cue is updated based on A/C parameters, not the missile.

[MARLAN_]

The LOST cue is updated based on A/C parameters, instead of the missile. This means that if you launch a missile on the edge of R^MAX (for example) and then crank in any direction, you will immediately get a LOST cue, despite the missile being fine, this is due to your nose causing your WEZ to move, even though the missile is already in flight. This can be very confusing to anyone unaware of the bug, thinking their missiles are lost when they are not.

If you watch the NIRD circle, the LOST cue is displayed as soon as it moves up past R^MAX

LOSTcue.trk

Edited November 11, 2021 by MARLAN_

[Jak525]

You can think of this like shooting a gun. If you point the gun at a target and shoot, then point the gun at the ground afterward, it doesn't affect the bullet in-flight. Of course, the next bullet under the trigger would hit the ground given the current parameters, but the bullet that's already in flight is on its way. Maneuvering the barrel "post launch" has no impact on the in-flight bullet. Thus, post launch calculations must account for this.

[84-Simba]

I thought the AMRAAM needed some early guidance by the A/C radar before going active ...

[MARLAN_]

1 hour ago, RoxSy said:

I thought the AMRAAM needed some early guidance by the A/C radar before going active ...

Yes, but this is a different issue.

[84-Simba]

8 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

Yes, but this is a different issue.

If the AC radar loses the target, how will it insure the early guidance of the AMRAAM until it goes pitbull ?

[RED]

48 minutes ago, RoxSy said:

If the AC radar loses the target, how will it insure the early guidance of the AMRAAM until it goes pitbull ?

The thread is not about the radar loosing the track.

[84-Simba]

''The LOST cue is updated based on A/C parameters, instead of the missile.''

There is definitely something I did not understand though ...

[MARLAN_]

3 hours ago, RoxSy said:

''The LOST cue is updated based on A/C parameters, instead of the missile.''

There is definitely something I did not understand though ...

LOST cue should display when the MC does not predict an intercept due to kinematics.

For example, shooting outside of R^MAX, or shooting inside R^MAX, but then the bandit drags, defeating your missile.

Currently, this calculation is based on your ownship aircraft parameters, and not your missile in flight, so it will incorrectly display LOST when you begin your crank. The NIRD Ranges are also inaccurate, but that's posted in a different topic 

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/286632-nird-circle-range-points-are-not-accurate-eg-rmaxrne/#comment-4821965

[84-Simba]

I think I start to understand

Thank you.

[MARLAN_]

@BIGNEWYAny news on this getting reported to the team it's still showing investigating, or the other similar thread? Is more evidence needed?

From my limited knowledge I would think the ranging is probably a straight forward change assuming the team has the current AIM-120 physics modeling easily available? The LOST cue could possibly store/freeze the A/C parameters at launch as a temporary variable? Just 2 shots in the dark, just hoping the issues can get reported!

Thanks!

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

the threads are marked investigating, we are in no rush as we want to check and ensure there is actually a problem before we commit dev time to the issue. 

As soon as we are happy there is a problem I will mark the thread reported. 

thanks

[BIGNEWY]

I have asked the team they have said the behaviour is correct as is. 

If you have any evidence it is not please PM me. 

thanks

[MARLAN_]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

I have asked the team they have said the behaviour is correct as is. 

If you have any evidence it is not please PM me. 

thanks

I think it would probably be common sense you would not get a "LOST" indication (indicating the missile in flight is no longer able to kinematically intercept it's target) due to your ownship heading changing while the missile is already in flight.

I'll see if I can dig up proof but I'm almost certain the current implementation is not accurate. It also causes a ton of confusion (I've had at least 10 people be confused now thinking their missiles are lost when they crank).

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, MARLAN_ said:

I think it would probably be common sense you would not get a "LOST" indication (indicating the missile in flight is no longer able to kinematically intercept it's target) due to your ownship heading changing while the missile is already in flight.

I'll see if I can dig up proof but I'm almost certain the current implementation is not accurate. It also causes a ton of confusion (I've had at least 10 people be confused now thinking their missiles are lost when they crank).

I have asked the team and we are not seeing a bug here, I can not ask them to change something without some evidence. 

thanks

[Foka]

What is logical sense of cuing LOST based on plane flight path, not missile's? Missile is allready in flight, I can and should do crankcing monouver, but when I do, I'll get LOST cue, because PLANE is outside of "kinetic range", but missile is doing fine. How can I use time to active cue and time to target cue if they disapear in the moment of evasive manouver... That's stupid.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Foka

[Harker]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

I have asked the team and we are not seeing a bug here, I can not ask them to change something without some evidence. 

thanks

LOST is displayed when time-to-go is decreased to zero. It refers to the last missile in flight. It in no way refers to the jet's kinematic state after the missile is launched.

742-100, page 274. PM'd the specific parts.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Harker

[MARLAN_]

23 hours ago, Harker said:

LOST is displayed when time-to-go is decreased to zero. It refers to the last missile in flight. It in no way refers to the jet's kinematic state after the missile is launched.

742-100, page 274. PM'd the specific parts.

 

FRM-000 also explains the kinematic portion of LOST.

Ill PM that as well to BN once I get off work. (PM'D)

Edited November 25, 2021 by MARLAN_

[norman99]

Any additional update on this bug? It’s extremely frustrating to get the lost cue, and loose the time to active, during every launch.

Edited January 13, 2022 by norman99

[MARLAN_]

I think I did a poor job of explaining the problem to the team, here's a quick picture to help explain the problem @BIGNEWY

On the top half, the current DCS implementation, the LOST cue is displayed as soon as the blue fighter begins his crank, because the red fighter is no longer inside R^MAX, but in that example, the LOST cue should not be displayed at all, because the red fighter has not maneuvered, and is still inside the original WEZ. The blue fighter maneuver should not change the missile in flight (orange arrow) to cause a LOST cue.

On the bottom half, shows how it should work. In this example, the red fighter decides to maneuver, and he exits R^MAX, which means the missile (orange arrow) will no longer be able to kinematically intercept its target, thus LOST should display as soon as the red fighter crosses the R^MAX boundary.

Additionally, if the red fighter decides to turn back around and flow back towards the missile, causing him to re-enter R^MAX, the post launch HUD Time-To-Active/Time-To-Go and RDR ATTK "A" (husky) or flashing "A" (pitbull) will be displayed again.

 

[Fresh]

Good drawing to explain!

[BIGNEWY]

I have reported to the team 

thank you all.