reported TMS Long requires button release before mode change

[Hellbat]

TMS long button presses must first be released before the mode change is initiated.  This can be observed in the following scenarios:

-  TMS Right when FCR is SOI (switching between RWS and TWS)

-  TMS Up when HUD is SOI and wanting to select the HMCS for markpoint creation

It was claimed here that this behavior is not correct:

I'd ask this to be referred to the team to see if this behavior is in fact correct.  Interestingly, DMS Down long to blank the HMD works as I would expect it to; the HMD goes blank while the button is still being pressed providing visual feedback that you can release it.  You can test this behavior in any instant action mission.

 

[WHOGX5]

12 hours ago, Hellbat said:

TMS long button presses must first be released before the mode change is initiated.  This can be observed in the following scenarios:

-  TMS Right when FCR is SOI (switching between RWS and TWS)

-  TMS Up when HUD is SOI and wanting to select the HMCS for markpoint creation

It was claimed here that this behavior is not correct:

I'd ask this to be referred to the team to see if this behavior is in fact correct.  Interestingly, DMS Down long to blank the HMD works as I would expect it to; the HMD goes blank while the button is still being pressed providing visual feedback that you can release it.  You can test this behavior in any instant action mission.

 

I don't know why this is marked as "correct-as-is" when it obviously isn't. I reported this same issue over 2 years ago and it's been marked as reported ever since. AFAIK this applies, like you mentioned, to every HOTAS Long action except HMD blanking. @BIGNEWY, is there any reason this is set as "correct-as-is"?

 

[SCPanda]

I agree. But I wonder if we can find any written evidence regarding F-16's HOTAS long action to convince ED. Apparently, ED dev is hard to convince lol. 

[WHOGX5]

17 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

I agree. But I wonder if we can find any written evidence regarding F-16's HOTAS long action to convince ED. Apparently, ED dev is hard to convince lol. 

I haven't even had a look in the RL manuals but I'm highly doubtful that it'd say "activate on release" or whatever since it's so incredibly obvious that it's not the case. Say that you want to switch from RWS to TWS by pressing TMS Long for >.5 seconds or whatever it is, there is literally no reason to depress it for >.51 seconds since there is no additional functionality to be had. It's not like dragging a folder to a new location on Windows where you can change your mind and cancel the move. Once it's depressed for >.5 seconds you're going to TWS whether you want it or not. Requiring the TMS Long to trigger on release rather than elapsed time goes against every fibre of user friendliness and only makes the process more ineffective by adding ambiguity to it, encouraging pilots to depress the TMS switch well over .5 seconds to ensure that they don't perform some other action they didn't intend.

But ED has access to SMEs, right? Should be quite a simple thing to verify. It would also be nice if ED could give a reason as to why it's marked "correct-as-is" so we know what they're basing their decision on and, in turn, know what we need to disprove.

[QuiGon]

I don't have any hard evidence either (it's pretty difficult to find some for such a specific issue), but the current button logic is extremely counterintuitive and works totally opposite to pretty much all the other modules, like the A-10C.
When I want to switch between RWS and TWS by pressing TMS right long I'm never really sure when I can release the button and keep it pressed a little longer just to be sure, but that can be very deadly in actual combat...

[Dunx]

I find it very hard to believe that General Dynamics (or whoever) systems and software engineers would make such a design decision.

• Depress button, guess when to release, repeat until function enabled.
• Depress button, release when function enabled.

Maybe they just didn't consider task saturation.

[CobaltUK]

Maybe Mover would  be willing  to comment.

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, CobaltUK said:

Maybe Mover would  be willing  to comment.

I doubt he would remember such a detail after so many years.

[WHOGX5]

20 hours ago, QuiGon said:

I doubt he would remember such a detail after so many years.

On the contrary I think he would definitely remember if actions triggered on release as it's such a big difference from every other US airframe.

This would also mean that from the first F-16C Block 25 in 1984 up until the F-16C Block 50 in 2007 this easily rectifiable deficiency in the F-16's HOTAS integration would have either not been reported by pilots or pilots requests would have been willfully ignored for over two decades? Both of these scenarios are extremely unlikely considering how easily fixed an issue like this would be.

As previously mentioned though, it would be best if ED could say what they base this implementation on. They must have a reason to make the F-16's HOTAS button presses different from every other airframe in DCS, right? It's strange that they haven't removed the "correct-as-is" tag for an issue that was marked as "reported" over two years ago, nor have they given any form of response to this thread.

[SCPanda]

On 1/7/2022 at 6:04 PM, WHOGX5 said:

equiring the TMS Long to trigger on release rather than elapsed time goes against every fibre of user friendliness and only makes the process more ineffective by adding ambiguity to it, encouraging pilots to depress the TMS switch well over .5 seconds to ensure that they don't perform some other action they didn't intend.

 

On 1/7/2022 at 6:30 PM, QuiGon said:

I don't have any hard evidence either (it's pretty difficult to find some for such a specific issue), but the current button logic is extremely counterintuitive and works totally opposite to pretty much all the other modules, like the A-10C.
When I want to switch between RWS and TWS by pressing TMS right long I'm never really sure when I can release the button and keep it pressed a little longer just to be sure, but that can be very deadly in actual combat...

Yep. With the current TMS long HOTAS logic in DCS, I have had multiple occasions when I press TMS right long for too long before release because I wasn't sure if I had pressed the key long enough, becuase I have had pressed the button too short and failed to switch to the mode I wanted therefore had to re-press the button again. It's frustrating and I doubt it's how the HOTAS function works in the real jet. 

In the other F-16 sim tho, TMS long works without having to release the button. As long as I have pressed the button long enough (0.5s), the mode will change to what I intented to. I'm pretty sure this is the right way to do it in real life. 

[QuiGon]

5 hours ago, SCPanda said:

In the other F-16 sim tho, TMS long works without having to release the button. As long as I have pressed the button long enough (0.5s), the mode will change to what I intented to. I'm pretty sure this is the right way to do it in real life. 

That's how it works in the DCS A-10C too and it's the most natural way to do it.

Edited January 10, 2022 by QuiGon

[WHOGX5]

2 hours ago, QuiGon said:

That's how it works in the DCS A-10C too and it's the most natural way to do it.

 

I don't know about you but I can't think of a single aircraft where timed HOTAS actions trigger on release. I have no idea how ED managed to interpret it this way and it doesn't help that they're refusing to back up their claims in any way or even just respond to the thread. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[QuiGon]

3 minutes ago, WHOGX5 said:

I don't know about you but I can't think of a single aircraft where timed HOTAS actions trigger on release. I have no idea how ED managed to interpret it this way and it doesn't help that they're refusing to back up their claims in any way or even just respond to the thread. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm as bewildered by this as you are.

[BIGNEWY]

The team will take another look at this and a report is being made. 

 

thanks