Defensive Systems?

[Jarhead0331]

Well...it seems as if the version of the Ka-50 modeled in the game does not have an RWR and/or a chaff dispenser. Looks like we've only got LWR and flares. Does anybody know the logic behind this design decision? Seems like a major weakness in survivability of the aircraft.

 

If there are other variants of the Ka-50 that do have an RWR, why was this variant not modeled in the simulation?

 

Thanks for your thoughts and comments...

[EvilBivol-1]

Except some Hinds, Russian combat helicopters are not equipped with RWRs and do not employ chaff.

 

I'll leave the "why" for somebody else. :)

 

P.S. Why is it that after hundreds of downed aircraft over Afghanistan in the 1980s, Russian helicopters will often fly without IR exhaust suppressors even today?

Edited December 4, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[deltahawk2008]

Interesting discussion. One of the first things I looked for in BS was the beloved SPO. As far as I know the laser warning receiver is the closest thing. Is there a performance hit with IR exhaust suppressors? Maybe some kind of doctrine thing? Its these differences that make the LOMAC/Blackshark series so interesting. A peek into a different way of doing things.

[AlphaOneSix]

There is no performance hit, but there is additional maintenance to worry about. Not much, but it's there. Also, the Russian bolt-on IR suppressors (at least for Mil birds) require airflow to be effective, and have a tendency to have heat-related stress cracks if you hover for too long.

[morsmortis]

They can fit a BMP-2's cannon onto this thing, but they can't put a RWR, FLIR, or a cocktail mixer!?

 

What the hell Kamov!

 

btw semper fi there marine.

[GGTharos]

The biggest threats to those helicopters are IR missiles and whatever armored vehicles employ. That's the long and short of it.

[Mad Dog 7.62]

I thought that was interesting too...no RWR, no IR jammer, no FLIR.....but ED's focus was on modeling the *actual* aircraft, not all the neato stuff we might like to have. I guess we wait for the Apache for that stuff. :-)

 

There is a option in the payload screen to load chaff....I haven't tried it yet and I am not sure how its "mixed" in the dispensers....hopefully if you load 64 of each and dispense two cartridges at a time you would get one flare and one chaff....but I haven't tried it yet.

 

In any case, I prefer to focus on what we DO have in this sim....and thats a lot of really well modeled systems to learn.....

MD

[deltahawk2008]

no RWR, no IR jammer, no FLIR.

 

Perhaps the designers of the KA 50 envisaged it only being used immediately adjacent to friendlies? Other types for more sophisticated missions?

[EvilBivol-1]

This is by no means unique to the Ka-50. It's a general reality of Russian combat helicopters. For example, here is an Mi-24 from the war in Georgia:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=537276&postcount=3

 

Notice, no RWR antennae, although it is equipped with IR exhaust suppressors and the "disco ball" IR jammer.

 

I would guess that a RWR can technically be added. In practice, however, even the most recent "high tech" Mi-28N production airframes are being delivered without a RWR as far as we can tell from available photos. The possible reasons are various and may be technical, financial, tactical, and organizational. Pick your choice and it is probably correct.

Edited December 4, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[arneh]

even the most recent "high tech" Mi-28N production airframes are being delivered without a RWR as far as we can tell from available photos.

 

Don't know if the Mi-28N does this, but the Apache Longbow's mast mounted radar has a RFI (radar frequency interferometer) which also sort of works like a RWR. It does carry conventional RWR antennas too, but that may be partly because many Apaches don't have the Longbow radar. I believe all Mi-28N have the mast mounted radar, and it could have a similar RFI system in its radar.

 

About the Longbow's RFI:

The RFI is a multiple baseline, single plane wideband interferometer, with 360 degree coverage and increased resolution forward coverage, using a cluster of cavity backed spiral antennas mounted beneath the radar package. With significantly better detection range than the APR-39 and pointing accuracy better than a degree of arc, the RFI is essentially a compact ESM style passive targeting receiver which can precisely measure bearing to an emitter. This allows it to detect and engage a battlefield radar, SPAAG or SAM system typically from outside the threat's detection envelope, tracking the mainlobe or lower antenna sidelobes.

Edited December 4, 2008 by arneh

[EvilBivol-1]

I believe all Mi-28N have the mast mounted radar...

Thanks for the RFI info (I really didn't know), but you believe wrong. So far at least, no Mi-28N mast-mounted radar exists. Welcome to Russia. :)

 

Perhaps this will change in the future.

Edited December 4, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[arneh]

So far at least, no Mi-28N mast-mounted radar exists. Welcome to Russia. :)

 

They're at least supposed to have a radar :)

Is it because the radar isn't ready yet that they don't carry any? I've certainly seen the pod on top of the main rotor, is it empty?

[Jarhead0331]

Are there any current or former Russian helo pilots or military aviation ground crew that use this sim and/or post in these forums? With other military aviation sims, there is always a handful of guys who have "been there, done that" who post in the forums and provide some authentic and truly fascinating input. It would be interesting to get a professional opinion on this particular sim. In response to the comment of GGtharos, I'd be shocked if the omission of an RWR is something that helps Russian helo pilots sleep better at night. There are numerous western and eastern anti-aircraft platforms that are radar based. Its a very real threat and I'm very curious how the Russians got onto this design path. Surely the cost of installing RWR in an aircraft is more cost effective than the loss of the aircraft which may occur due to the omission of the system?

[Legolasindar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-28

 

Mi-28N/MMW Havoc - All weather day-and-night combat helicopter. It is equipped with a top-mounted millimeter wave radar station, IR-TV, and laser ranger. Serial Mi-28N will have two TV3-117V MA-SB3 engines (2500 hp each), made by the Ukrainian Motor-Sich. Max take off weight of 11500 kg, max payload weight of 2350 kg.

 

---

 

I only pasted wiki information, i dont know this is true or not.

[Boberro]

Don't believe sites like wikipedia too much. Example I didn't know Su-25TM can fly even 2250 km\h. Incredible. Faster than jets :D

 

[GGTharos]

It would be interesting to get a professional opinion on this particular sim.

 

What sort of opinion are you looking for? ED directly cooperated with Kamov in the making of this sim, including their test pilots.

 

In response to the comment of GGtharos, I'd be shocked if the omission of an RWR is something that helps Russian helo pilots sleep better at night.

 

When did I ever say they'd sleep better at night? ;)

 

There are numerous western and eastern anti-aircraft platforms that are radar based. Its a very real threat and I'm very curious how the Russians got onto this design path.

 

The Beryoza isn't capable of giving you reasonable SA. It will not show you what you want to see - it'll light up all over the place, and if you're lucky it'll give you a lock tone - but a lot of SHORAD systems use IR/Optical or some other passive form of guidance, so you might not even get that.

 

Finally, those helis aren't supposed to operate in places where such threats exist, or, in theory they should be able to avoid them by using NOE.

 

Surely the cost of installing RWR in an aircraft is more cost effective than the loss of the aircraft which may occur due to the omission of the system?

 

Who knows? A heli encountering a radar guided SAM might be expected to be a rather rare occurence. I'm not certain if Rapier/Roland/Crotale are capable of engaging low-flying helis, which for the most part leaves you with the stinger.

[EvilBivol-1]

Are there any current or former Russian helo pilots or military aviation ground crew that use this sim and/or post in these forums? With other military aviation sims, there is always a handful of guys who have "been there, done that" who post in the forums and provide some authentic and truly fascinating input.

On the Russian forum, there are at least three combat helicopter pilots that I'm aware of and AFAIK, they have all assisted ED in one or more ways. I hesitate to speak on their behalf, but I think I can say they are great fans of the product. And sure, they often provide great insight, not only as related to the simulation, but Russian army aviation in general.

 

On the English forum, we have at least two seasoned crew chiefs experienced with Kamov and Mil machines, but, once again, I'll let them speak for themselves.

It would be interesting to get a professional opinion on this particular sim.

Well, this may not exactly be a professional opinion, but perhaps a kind of endorsement...? ;)

http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_videopage.main?sender=news&p_topic_id=123638&p_video_num=1&counter1_href=287212&counter2_href=id=268366;t=56

[EvilBivol-1]

Is it because the radar isn't ready yet that they don't carry any? I've certainly seen the pod on top of the main rotor, is it empty?

The radar is not ready and is still in the prototype and testing phase. It isn't clear when it may be ready and what kind of field service it will see when it is. As for the RWR, some Mi-28N prototypes did appear to have RWR installed. The fact that these are no longer visible on production machines would indicate that the military is simply not getting them.

 

Of course, none of this is official or final, but it fits in with the historical pattern.

Edited December 5, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[GGTharos]

The might be using Pastel now though, and that just might display on one of the MFDs.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

P.S. Why is it that after hundreds of downed aircraft over Afghanistan in the 1980s, Russian helicopters will often fly without IR exhaust suppressors even today?

In my view, it has to do with how the helicopters will be used in future conflicts.

 

NATO and USA never used attack helicopters in military use over Yugoslavia. Desperate, multimillion dollar attempt to use Apache over Kosovo and Metohia ended in fiasco where two helicopters crashed in training flights. Sadly, pilots died as well. Apaches were not able to do the job for what they were designed for.

 

My point is, in today’s world, combat helicopters will be used under very limited circumstances. Mission planners will work hard to minimize attack helicopter exposure to IR threats, thus reduced need for IR suppressors.

[EvilBivol-1]

The might be using Pastel now though, and that just might display on one of the MFDs.

Yes, IIRC, it's the Pastel antennae that were on the prototypes and are now missing in production. ;)

[uhoh7]

Well, this may not exactly be a professional opinion, but perhaps a kind of endorsement...? ;)

http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_videopage.main?sender=news&p_topic_id=123638&p_video_num=1&counter1_href=287212&counter2_href=id=268366;t=56

 

I watched that--wish I had some russian. Can you give us a synopsis?

[Esac_mirmidon]

EvilBivol-1 could you point us about the name of the russian pilots in the russian forum side?

 

Since a year and a half translating russian manuals from russian into english and then into spanish i am very effective doing so. It would be vey interesting to read and translate some of they posts.

 

Thanks