TGP laser issues

[Lurz]

Hello gentlemen!

Are there any known issues with the laser ? lately I'm strugling to get good target coordinates with the laser. Seems the laser passes through the target and takes the coordinates of the ground behind the target , and you can gues... my weapons hitting the ground behind the target. For an example I haven't missed to hit target with AGM-65H in force correlation mode before. But recently the behaviour of the laser seems broken. The Hog was my very first module and I fly that bird many years already, so  i'm not doing something wrong for sure. Any clues of bugged laser? I did not find anything in the forum

[DN308]

Since when did you observe that?

[Lurz]

I first noticed it about a month ago approx . I haven't flown with the Hog lately because I was learning other module. Today I decided to get him out of the hangar and kill a few small range sams in the server I fly lately... three runs without success. All maverics missed in force correlation mode and hit the ground 15-20 m behind the target. Tommorow will do some more tests to be sure .

Edited January 25, 2022 by Lurz

[DN308]

I had something similar tonight, trying to lase a tank for a GBU. I had a 1/4 of a mile miss with laser on, good code, but i’ve Noticed a shift in the TGP LOS some second before impact. 

I had a similar issue with Mavericks going way off the target yesterday and today while having check my aiming before transmitting the target to the missile. After having launched the missile, I saw that the TGP has made a shift to another point behind the target I actually wanted to strike.

[Yurgon]

1 hour ago, Lurz said:

Are there any known issues with the laser ?

The range is limited to 8.something nautical miles. It's possible to get invalid data when the target is farther away.

As far as I know, Force Correlate is a DCS-ism. It's not a long range sniper in real life, it's rather a workaround when there's too little target contrast for a good track. If it's unreliable now, that's probably for the better.

In any case, I'm not aware of current laser issues, so if you could reproduce the problem with a short track, that would be most helpful.

[ASAP]

3 hours ago, Lurz said:

 Seems the laser passes through the target and takes the coordinates of the ground behind the target , and you can gues.

When lasing to get coordinates aim at the base of the target not the top to minimize elevation errors. Also its always preferable for a bomb to fall slightly short rather than slightly long because it will throw all its frag in the direction its traveling.

Force correlate is a real thing but its to pick an exact spot on a non-tactical sized target, you would still need there to be good contrast to use it though (something like the span of a bridge, or a specific window on a building). Like Yurgon said its not a long range sniper shot, it's just a different method of locking up a target.

Once you use your TGP slave all to spi magic to get the maverick pointed at the target you still have to manually make sure the maverick is locked onto the target, don't assume that it locked onto the same thing your TGP is looking because it often isn't.

[Lurz]

17 hours ago, Yurgon said:

The range is limited to 8.something nautical miles. It's possible to get invalid data when the target is farther away.

Since when ? I haven't noticed any changes about that In Changelogs

15 hours ago, ASAP said:

When lasing to get coordinates aim at the base of the target not the top to minimize elevation errors. Also its always preferable for a bomb to fall slightly short rather than slightly long because it will throw all its frag in the direction its traveling.

I know that well enough. That's not the case here. And  I use force correlation mode when I want to hit some SA-15 or other similar SAM from good enough distance . It's needless to explain you guys that it's impossible to lock target with AGM-65H from far. I have killed many Thors from about 10-12 nm with good altitude and targeting from such distances always worked) Well .. `till now Later I'll do some targeting tests from different distances. Someone probably will say A10C is not a SEAD aircraft . It's not but If I were able to do that many times before, why should not now :))

[Yurgon]

1 hour ago, Lurz said:

Since when ? I haven't noticed any changes about that In Changelogs

I'm not even sure that was changed. I've been reading about it quite a bit in recent months, but never noticed it myself. But it's important to know that apparently the laser will actually stop in mid air, so if you're beyond 8.3 or so miles slant range, you might get some pretty funky targeting data. And anyone using LSS to track that laser target in MP will probably tell you that you're lasing a grassy field instead of an MBT...

1 hour ago, Lurz said:

It's not but If I were able to do that many times before, why should not now :))

Well that's like saying you shouldn't get a speeding ticket because you were never caught speeding before.

[Lurz]

36 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

Well that's like saying you shouldn't get a speeding ticket because you were never caught speeding before.

But come on Yurgon, you know exactly what I mean. When something becomes routine and suddenly changes... I have built certain expectations from the module on the experience I have gained.. If you find that your car has suddenly lost power, you will not check what is wrong ?  I'm just trying to find what is different now or wrong, nothing more. Btw just found that you are right - marked target at 12, 11... 8 miles.. well..only the final Mark point at 8th mile was over the target. So that`s new for me..

Edited January 26, 2022 by Lurz

[Yurgon]

29 minutes ago, Lurz said:

But come on Yurgon, you know exactly what I mean.

For years and years, people on this forum have warned that Force Correlate isn't used to destroy targets with pinpoint accuracy from well beyond the Maverick's normal tracking-range in real life.

I've tried it once or twice for fun and giggles, and otherwise didn't bother with it.

If I understand correctly that it's no longer working in DCS the way it used to, and has lost much of its precision, then I guess you have to find a way to deal with this new situation. I mean, it's an interesting find for sure. As far as I'm concerned, this peculiarity just got closer to real life, and that sounds good to me.

[Lurz]

I will admit that I do not visit the forum very often to follow everything written. All in all what you said sounds fair enough for me. I can live with that, no more sniper attacs with my beloved Hog. Going to hit the dirt then Cheers!

[BuzzU]

2 hours ago, Yurgon said:

 

If I understand correctly that it's no longer working in DCS the way it used to, and has lost much of its precision, then I guess you have to find a way to deal with this new situation. I mean, it's an interesting find for sure. As far as I'm concerned, this peculiarity just got closer to real life, and that sounds good to me.

Yes, but sometimes real life sucks!

[QuiGon]

17 hours ago, Lurz said:

Since when ? I haven't noticed any changes about that In Changelogs

It's been like this as far as I can think back and I'm flying the DCS A-10C for 10 years now.

The range of the laser in DCS is indeed restricted to ~9nm and if the surface it is pointing at is further away than ~9nm than the laser will just stop in the air. This is especially evident when using the IR marker with NVGs as you can literally see it ending in the air.

[Lurz]

5 hours ago, QuiGon said:

It's been like this as far as I can think back and I'm flying the DCS A-10C for 10 years now.

The range of the laser in DCS is indeed restricted to ~9nm and if the surface it is pointing at is further away than ~9nm than the laser will just stop in the air. This is especially evident when using the IR marker with NVGs as you can literally see it ending in the air.

I can not fully agree, I also have a video from 2019, lasing from ~12 miles with precision hits from the same distance but anyway, it's all clear now

Edited January 27, 2022 by Lurz

[jaylw314]

5 hours ago, Lurz said:

I can not fully agree, I also have a video from 2019, lasing from ~12 miles with precision hits from the same distance but anyway, it's all clear now

 

That is completely possible.  The laser max range is more like 8 nm slant range, but if you fire from 12 nm out, laser guided weapons will track the spot in the air where the laser ends.  If you get within 8nm before the weapon reaches it, it'll track that "air" spot until you get within laser range.

[QuiGon]

10 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

That is completely possible.  The laser max range is more like 8 nm slant range, but if you fire from 12 nm out, laser guided weapons will track the spot in the air where the laser ends.  If you get within 8nm before the weapon reaches it, it'll track that "air" spot until you get within laser range.

This

[Lurz]

Laser guided... Did you guys read what i wrote above ? I'm talking about AGM-65H... When I mentioned "lasing" I  meant a target designation only, not guiding

Edited January 28, 2022 by Lurz

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Lurz said:

Laser guided... Did you guys read what i wrote above ? I'm talking about AGM-65H... When I mentioned "lasing" I  meant a target designation only, not guiding

I might have misunderstood, when you said "lasing from ~12 miles with precision hits" I assumed you were talking about a different scenario with laser-guided munitions.

If you were still talking about AGM-65H, laser has nothing to do with it other than getting the range FYI.  The seeker tracks the TV picture, regardless of how far away it is.

For GPS/INS weapons, yes, using the laser to get the range to the target instead of the ground behind it is a thing, but for AGM-65H it should not be.

[ASAP]

4 hours ago, Dragan said:

Today I had a problem with locking Maverick, in 5 to 10 pass ,none of the 2 Maverick D / K s wanted to lock in on the target, and I went deep into the range of up to 5 m each time.In any case,an SPI was always made through TGP. Then Maverick was subordinated...Bad day 

 

5 miles is actually a very long shot for a maverick IRL... try pushing it in to more like 2-3nm and see what you can get

[jaylw314]

24 minutes ago, Dragan said:

The range between 5 and 7 m should be optimal, specifically 7 m for the range when it could already identify the target and shoot

The Maverick IR and EO seekers have much lower resolution than the TGP camera, so in cluttered areas, it can fail to lock or lock on the wrong pixel if you're more than 5 nm away.