Tacan navigation - air refuling still not working

[skywalker22]

Sorry, but I have to say that using Tacan communication for air refuling is still not working. I bet the bug with the Tacan still persists.

This is from change log: 

• Inconsistent A/A TACAN behavior fixed. Tankers in old missions now get correct TACAN frequency at the beacon creation.

Edited June 18, 2024 by skywalker22
Tag "correct as is" removed!

[Frederf]

Maybe that as an unrelated issue. The TACAN issue with air stations acting as ground stations and only the X pulse coding working (presumably because the Y frequencies are different between air and ground modes) remains as before the latest update.

[BIGNEWY]

Please resave the mission and retry, let me know if it helps

thanks

[XCNuse]

Confirmed, A/A TACAN does not seem to be fixed in yesterday's patch (or somehow didn't make it in patch)

Attachments show for now standard T/R seems to suffice in a not correct way, but still seems to temp work.

A/A continues to spin and cannot find.

 

Further testing, interestingly, if air station is set to a Y channel, I'm unable to find the tacan at all.

Edited March 18, 2022 by XCNuse

[Demiurgo]

@BIGNEWY I've resaved the mission but problem remains.

 

Thanks.

[BIGNEWY]

Ok from the team, it is working as intended  

Tankers have "ground" type TACAN and should be communicated in T/R mode, not in A/A

T/R A-A is only for fighter-to-fighter TACAN comms

[skywalker22]

Btw, this is from Chuck`s manual, so it is in some ways wrong then? Communication between fighter pilot and Tanker is considered as Air-To-Air right?

 

So how come Fighter-To-Fighter is different, then Fighter-To-Tanker? For me its the same, both are airplanes, no matter of a type. Just want to come clear, thats why Im asking.

Edited June 18, 2024 by skywalker22

[norman99]

5 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

So how come Fighter-To-Fighter is different, then Fighter-To-Tanker? For me its the same, both are airplanes, no matter why type. Just want to come clear, thats why Im asking.

This is because fighter-to-fighter tacan only provides distance information, whereas fighter-to-tanker provides both distance and bearing, the same as ground based tacan stations.

Edited March 18, 2022 by norman99

[Wing]

From what I have researched on this, KC-135 & KC-130 are generally range only with some exceptions whereas KC-10 is range and bearing.

Depending on how ED coded this, there could be instances in the future where A/A TR should show both range and bearing with the KC-10 (if that is ever a possibility). KC-135 is giving azimuth only and it should be range only to be technically correct as per SMEs. So technically, there is still an issue here and this is not "correct as is" @BIGNEWY.

Tankers are not all the same, so it depends on what ED are reading which is causing this confusion.

[TheBigTatanka]

I flew KC-135s in the USAF. Our TACANs for refueling are A/A only. And we only get distance, not bearing to one another. We certainly don't have a TACAN beacon onboard (like a ground based station). We just use the A/A feature of TACANs that allow us to see distance from our receiver (when set to 63 channels apart) and then use that data to make the rendezvous work.

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[Frederf]

2 minutes ago, TheBigTatanka said:

I flew KC-135s in the USAF. Our TACANs for refueling are A/A only. And we only get distance, not bearing to one another. We certainly don't have a TACAN beacon onboard (like a ground based station). We just use the A/A feature of TACANs that allow us to see distance from our receiver (when set to 63 channels apart) and then use that data to make the rendezvous work.

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Some tankers have bearing equipment, some don't. But in both cases the receiver will use the AA mode.

[Wing]

For more research to give ED, I have also found these public references: "15 minutes prior to ARCT (near IP): Initial call to receiver (AR/1-2) [EMCON 2 - Call sign, altitude, on time/ahead/behind]. Air-to-Air TACAN:  KC-135 range only, PACER CRAG range & bearing, KC-10 range & bearing, 200NM max range."

Source: https://robrobinette.com/C-141/dash2_ar.htm

There is also the http://www.navedu.navy.mi.th/stg/databasestory/data/laukniyom/ship-active/big-country-ship/United-States/ATP/ATP56A.pdf which A/A Tacan is specifically referenced over 67 times. Hope this helps clear up some confusion. Along side the SME input from @TheBigTatankaas well...

Edited March 18, 2022 by Wing

[WHOGX5]

1 hour ago, Wing said:

From what I have researched on this, KC-135 & KC-130 are generally range only with some exceptions whereas KC-10 is range and bearing.

Depending on how ED coded this, there could be instances in the future where A/A TR should show both range and bearing with the KC-10 (if that is ever a possibility). KC-135 is giving azimuth only and it should be range only to be technically correct as per SMEs. So technically, there is still an issue here and this is not "correct as is" @BIGNEWY.

Tankers are not all the same, so it depends on what ED are reading which is causing this confusion.

Yeah, last I heard (though it was a couple of years ago by now) the KC-10 was the only aircraft in the entire USAF inventory that had A/A TACAN with both distance and bearing information. All other aircraft only displayed TACAN distance information.

[Chain_1]

26 minutes ago, TheBigTatanka said:

I flew KC-135s in the USAF. Our TACANs for refueling are A/A only. And we only get distance, not bearing to one another. We certainly don't have a TACAN beacon onboard (like a ground based station). We just use the A/A feature of TACANs that allow us to see distance from our receiver (when set to 63 channels apart) and then use that data to make the rendezvous work.

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Good to see another TOAD.  I confirm this as a current 135 pilot.  If you want bearing AND distance, you need a KC-10 or KC-46, and it should be A/A.  The current reference is the ATP 3.3.4.2 US National SRD (publicly available at the Joint Air Power Competence Centre) para 4.17.3.

[Wing]

Appreciate the confirmation with that fellas. We can hope now that the "correct as is" tag is removed, and it is relayed to the dev team to fix soon!

[Ahmed]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Ok from the team, it is working as intended  

Tankers have "ground" type TACAN and should be communicated in T/R mode, not in A/A

T/R A-A is only for fighter-to-fighter TACAN comms

This is definitely not correct for the KC-135.

[XCNuse]

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Ok from the team, it is working as intended 

Tankers have "ground" type TACAN and should be communicated in T/R mode, not in A/A

T/R A-A is only for fighter-to-fighter TACAN comms

 

Okay, I think for clarity sake, as this thread is continuing; there might be some communication fault that's occurring.

Breaking down your words BN; I assume you're telling us, how it works right now, is by design.

Regardless of reasons or choice, how Tankers and TCN work, was a decision that was made, and is functioning correctly.

 

I think confusion in this thread is ensuing because others are saying this is "wrong."

The point I want to make with this post however is; while it may be wrong, this was a game engine choice for an unknown reason; regardless of accuracy.

 

Is this assumption correct?

 

And if this is the case, WILL we see the Tankers code be fixed to where they are A/A only TACAN? Or do we have to continue with, what I would call a "working solution"? Again; being innaccurate, but... required for the game to function properly.

[skywalker22]

2 hours ago, TheBigTatanka said:

I flew KC-135s in the USAF. Our TACANs for refueling are A/A only. And we only get distance, not bearing to one another. We certainly don't have a TACAN beacon onboard (like a ground based station). We just use the A/A feature of TACANs that allow us to see distance from our receiver (when set to 63 channels apart) and then use that data to make the rendezvous work.

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One quection here: so how can a plane (fighter jet) find your KC-135, if the only data available is distance? I don`t get it. If the fighter jet doesn`t have a bearing, how can it know in which direction to turn?

[Deano87]

30 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

One quection here: so how can a plane (fighter jet) find your KC-135, if the only data available is distance? I don`t get it. If the fighter jet doesn`t have a bearing, how can it know in which direction to turn?

Tankers you're expecting to be using during a mission are going to be patrolling in a known location that will be briefed prior to the flight, so you'll know roughly where it will be relative to your planned route. And if not then their location can be passed via radio, either from the tanker directly or from other supporting assets (awacs etc). Once you're nose on, you have an air-to-air radar to help find them as well.

[Frederf]

Older KC-135s only have the ability to transpond air to air which gives "yardstick" just like between two F-15s. Rendezvous would be accomplished by voice comms, prior planning, AWACS direction, fighter radar, etc. Aerial refueling does not strictly require radio navigation aids of any kind. Newer KC-135Rs with Pacer CRAG upgrade have the ability to provide bearing and transponding air to air service. KC-10s and other refueler aircraft may have range and bearing service.

Regardless of refueler aircraft particular equipment and capability, all tanker-provided TACAN service is done in the air-to-air mode. This means the refueling aircraft only receives information from the tanker when their equipment is set to the air-to-air mode and never when set to the air-to-ground mode.

[TheBigTatanka]

Older KC-135s only have the ability to transpond air to air which gives "yardstick" just like between two F-15s. Rendezvous would be accomplished by voice comms, prior planning, AWACS direction, fighter radar, etc. Aerial refueling does not strictly require radio navigation aids of any kind. Newer KC-135Rs with Pacer CRAG upgrade have the ability to provide bearing and transponding air to air service. KC-10s and other refueler aircraft may have range and bearing service.
Regardless of refueler aircraft particular equipment and capability, all tanker-provided TACAN service is done in the air-to-air mode. This means the refueling aircraft only receives information from the tanker when their equipment is set to the air-to-air mode and never when set to the air-to-ground mode.

I flew Pacer CRAG jets exclusively, and i don't think anyone ever saw bearing to us.

Distance is the only information needed for a point parallel rendezvous (used for large aircraft) because the track has an IP and a CP. On the ground we gonk out the offset and distance required to turn in front of the receiver and roll out in front of them on the track. We orbit offset the track, and when the receiver calls IP inbound, we drive towards them in the offset and watch that air to air TACAN readout. True airspeed at altitude and wind corrections have gone into this offset distance and turn distance. It works out pretty great because everyone is flying contract airspeeds for their type of aircraft.

For fighters, we refuel in an anchor. We load the boundaries of that anchor from our FMS and it draws the boundaries on our MFD. We then use TCAS as the main tool for effecting the rendezvous. Our FMS allows us to set a particular transponder code and label it. So if I know my next receivers are squaking 1234, i can dial that in and label them. At 40nm I'll see a blip pop up on the TCAS with their callsign. Then i time my turn towards the edge of the anchor to be there right as they cross into the area. I try to turn away from the fighters so I'm abeam to them at 5nm, which allows for them to modulate thrust and lead turn without having to pull a bunch of Gs.

I don't know if fighters are using TCAS, but the guys I've talked to said they use datalink and radar to find us once they are pointed at the anchor area.

No bearing pointer needed.

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[Chain_1]

I think the only fighters I've seen actually use a/a tacan with us are the A-10s.  In 11 years of having both offloaded and onloaded fuel in the 135, I've never seen bearing in a/a t/r, and the -1 makes no mention of transmitting bearing.

[Carbon715]

[Wing]

Any new word from ED with this?

[skywalker22]

@BIGNEWY any news regarding this topic? There were 2 updates inbetween, but using TACAN is the same as before. Its not working as it used to be, and not as IRL. 

Just checking, if there has been any work on it. Its not a hurry, but still would be fine to fix it.