reported Mi-24P Deceleration Oscillations

[MelonatorPL]

Thanks for the info!

[MelonatorPL]

Any updates regarding this issue? How high is this on the priority list of Mi24 bugs? This heli is my favorite module but it has been idle in the hangar due to the annoyance of this issue. Any chance for a reply from one of the devs? Thanks.

Edited August 18, 2022 by MelonatorPL

[River]

The trim behaviour for all return to center (spring) stick users is a 100 percent broken and doesn't allow us for precise trimming and thus smooth and enjoyable flying.

 

See my short video below. 

 

I can't speak for FFB users or no spring stick bases but Instant trim option and Central position trim option does NOT work properly. 

 

 

When depressing and holding down trim we loose everything, no AP input and what seems to me no SAS helper anymore. The helicopter flies barebones, just as you would have pressed AP emergency off button. After releasing trim button the new attitude is set and no other input by the AP is given, there is no overshoot of pitch or roll AP. 

Clicking the trim button resets the AP for a moment but the AP goes back to the attitude it was at before the trim click. This goes for both AP channels, roll and pitch. 

Clicking in small increments just masks the issue. The AP should not go back to the previous attitude after clicking trim.

I talked to some people about this problem and there are a thousand different takes on that matter. 

As there are many other user complaining about this exact issue and are desperately awaiting a fix, I will track this further down till we know whats wrong and how it can be solved. Right now a smooth and reliable trimming for spring stick users is not possible.

 

As of now I don't believe clicking trim should bring the AP to zero and then back to the before click setting nor do I believe holding trimmer down makes you control a Mi 24 that acts like there is zero SAS working as long as trim is beeing hold. 

Thats my 2 cents for now.... 

Edited December 11, 2022 by River

[admiki]

And I already told you that you are wrong.

When you fly level all trimmed out and then change attitude (for example you pull cyclic for nose up), AP tries to get you back to level. So it gives input to nose down. So, your position is sum of cyclic and AP inputs. When you press FTR (let's call it position X), you lose that AP  input and nose goes further up because your cyclic is still giving inputs which you can see in controls indicator (that is now position Y). AP goes to your "previous state" because nose is above position X and it tries to get you back there.

Reason that there is no overshoot if you hold FTR is that you are compensating for lost inputs from AP (you have only cyclic inputs) and once you are stable and release FTR, AP doesn't have to get you to desired position.

I also told you that real life Hind pilot confirmed to me that if you are holding FTR will disable SAS. Just because you believe it shouldn't be so does not make you correct. Or you have some real life Hind experience that backs up your beliefs?

Edited December 11, 2022 by admiki

[sylkhan]

River is right, ED trimming implementation is wrong and i don't care about technical aspect of the things.

Trimming the Hind can't do this weird behaviour in Real life, that's not possible.

And in the last patches ED has been trying to minimize this behavior which means they are aware of the problem.

Let's hope they can solve it completely

[AeriaGloria]

8 hours ago, sylkhan said:

River is right, ED trimming implementation is wrong and i don't care about technical aspect of the things.

Trimming the Hind can't do this weird behaviour in Real life, that's not possible.

And in the last patches ED has been trying to minimize this behavior which means they are aware of the problem.

Let's hope they can solve it completely

oscillation from pitch is seperate from what you think trimming should work…. Let’s not confuse them

What data or evidence shows the trimming is wrong? Every real life source and data says ED has it right. And I have tried to show as many of those sources as possible, especially since English language Cold War museum manual ks available online and describes whole autopilot 

The AP doesn’t care about what you think of it’s implementation….. it does not care what you think is possible or not….. it is an analog computer designed to shut off and re align when trim button is pressed, and every real life source refers to this. If someone doesn’t like the way that works they can take it up with Mil…. Who’s dead now, so someone else at the company…. Or the pilots that have verified that the trim button shuts off AP pitch and roll and re aligns them at current altitude when released…….

So if we can talk about pitch oscillation and not trim… and discuss trim issues in trim threads…. I have not experienced any pitch oscillations in the most recent patch….. feels really good…..

 

I see nothing wrong with Rivers video, he keeps pulling up during trimming, so no matter how much you trim the AP will keep fighting the pitch up. Becuase by pulling back the AP has to both dampen the change in pitch rate, and the GROWING difference between last trim attitude and current attitude. So as he keeps pulling back the AP keeps fighting it even after he trims. Even if it only did attitude hold it would still fight River as he keeps pitching up. Same thing when he pitched down, if you pitch down while trimming and keep pitching, the AP will continue to fight it as your attitude goes below last time you trimmed……You can tell in video when he released trim when in still stable flight, it works perfect. As for jerking causing pitch, that is a real issue also, and the reason you are supposed to trim a lot or sometimes hold trim if desired. This is also why Ka-50 AP added dampening when trim pressed….. turns out 1970s analog autopilots aren’t perfect……. I just trim twice to get rid of jumping issue if I trim while AP is making large input. You pull up, AP fights it with down, you press trim, down input goes away and your pitch rate increases. You just need to be aware of that, it’s not a problem on a 1970s AP 

If you trim level, pull up to 15 degrees, press trim, add down input to stabilize at 15 degrees then release trim. Or Atleast trim twice at 15 degrees so it stays there, trim will work perfect and be centered. It only has 18% authority, I can’t really blame it when you pitch up and it fights it but it can’t 100% stop it with its 18% authority…… You can do same thing with 15 degrees roll…. Works how the pictures I’ve attached says it works, yes it isn’t perfect….

If you use it as intended, trimming when stable and still to let AP help you fly straight and stabilize manuevers…. It will work great. I don’t know why you would want to keep pressing trim while still pulling back on stick….but if that behavior disagrees with the sources from Cold War manual below, why don’t we take it to a trim thread? Becuase river is not having pitch oscillations that this thread was made for 

If there is a source or piece of info I’m missing, let me know 

Edited December 16, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[admiki]

7 hours ago, sylkhan said:

River is right, ED trimming implementation is wrong and i don't care about technical aspect of the things.

Trimming the Hind can't do this weird behaviour in Real life, that's not possible.

And in the last patches ED has been trying to minimize this behavior which means they are aware of the problem.

Let's hope they can solve it completely

Sure. 

[sylkhan]

@River i tested the last openbeta and trimming is better.

ED continues to teak the trim, it's on the good way, 2 or 3 more Openbeta and we should be good

I did a quick video, you can take a look,i trim a lot

 

[River]

On 12/16/2022 at 9:25 PM, AeriaGloria said:

oscillation from pitch is seperate from what you think trimming should work…. Let’s not confuse them

What data or evidence shows the trimming is wrong? Every real life source and data says ED has it right. And I have tried to show as many of those sources as possible, especially since English language Cold War museum manual ks available online and describes whole autopilot 

The AP doesn’t care about what you think of it’s implementation….. it does not care what you think is possible or not….. it is an analog computer designed to shut off and re align when trim button is pressed, and every real life source refers to this. If someone doesn’t like the way that works they can take it up with Mil…. Who’s dead now, so someone else at the company…. Or the pilots that have verified that the trim button shuts off AP pitch and roll and re aligns them at current altitude when released…….

So if we can talk about pitch oscillation and not trim… and discuss trim issues in trim threads…. I have not experienced any pitch oscillations in the most recent patch….. feels really good…..

 

I see nothing wrong with Rivers video, he keeps pulling up during trimming, so no matter how much you trim the AP will keep fighting the pitch up. Becuase by pulling back the AP has to both dampen the change in pitch rate, and the GROWING difference between last trim attitude and current attitude. So as he keeps pulling back the AP keeps fighting it even after he trims. Even if it only did attitude hold it would still fight River as he keeps pitching up. Same thing when he pitched down, if you pitch down while trimming and keep pitching, the AP will continue to fight it as your attitude goes below last time you trimmed……You can tell in video when he released trim when in still stable flight, it works perfect. As for jerking causing pitch, that is a real issue also, and the reason you are supposed to trim a lot or sometimes hold trim if desired. This is also why Ka-50 AP added dampening when trim pressed….. turns out 1970s analog autopilots aren’t perfect……. I just trim twice to get rid of jumping issue if I trim while AP is making large input. You pull up, AP fights it with down, you press trim, down input goes away and your pitch rate increases. You just need to be aware of that, it’s not a problem on a 1970s AP 

If you trim level, pull up to 15 degrees, press trim, add down input to stabilize at 15 degrees then release trim. Or Atleast trim twice at 15 degrees so it stays there, trim will work perfect and be centered. It only has 18% authority, I can’t really blame it when you pitch up and it fights it but it can’t 100% stop it with its 18% authority…… You can do same thing with 15 degrees roll…. Works how the pictures I’ve attached says it works, yes it isn’t perfect….

If you use it as intended, trimming when stable and still to let AP help you fly straight and stabilize manuevers…. It will work great. I don’t know why you would want to keep pressing trim while still pulling back on stick….but if that behavior disagrees with the sources from Cold War manual below, why don’t we take it to a trim thread? Becuase river is not having pitch oscillations that this thread was made for 

If there is a source or piece of info I’m missing, let me know 

 

Gloria, you are making crazy assumtions here.

I am neither "keep pulling back" as you wrote nor do I "keep pulling up".

I do NOT keep pulling back after trimming, I eather reset my return to center spring stick back to center within 0.5 seconds (instantly) in Instant trim mode or do the same when using Central position trim mode.

Once again, I do NOT give any input at all. Neither down, up, etc.

The stick simply goes back to center as supposed to when using Instant trim or Center trim option. 

Instant trim and Central trim option are there to avoid that for us spring stick users. You eather go back to center right away (INSTANT TRIM MODE) or you you decide when to go back to center. Till then your axis inputs are locked (CENTRAL TRIM MODE).

As stated above, I do NOT give ANY input. It is the AP that brings the aircraft to the before trim attitude.

INSTANT TRIM OPTION AND CENTRAL POSITION TRIM OPTION should prevent a spring stick setup giving inputs when returning the stick to center. 

The current state of the discussion is the only people defending the trim behaviour for spring stick users in the Mi 24 are eather using FFB or a no spring setup with a dry clutch.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by River

[admiki]

5 hours ago, River said:

Gloria, you are making crazy assumtions here.

I am neither "keep pulling back" as you wrote nor do I "keep pulling up".

I do NOT keep pulling back after trimming, I eather reset my return to center spring stick back to center within 0.5 seconds (instantly) in Instant trim mode or do the same when using Central position trim mode.

Once again, I do NOT give any input at all. Neither down, up, etc.

The stick simply goes back to center as supposed to when using Instant trim or Center trim option. 

Instant trim and Central trim option are there to avoid that for us spring stick users. You eather go back to center right away (INSTANT TRIM MODE) or you you decide when to go back to center. Till then your axis inputs are locked (CENTRAL TRIM MODE).

As stated above, I do NOT give ANY input. It is the AP that brings the aircraft to the before trim attitude.

INSTANT TRIM OPTION AND CENTRAL POSITION TRIM OPTION should prevent a spring stick setup giving inputs when returning the stick to center. 

The current state of the discussion is the only people defending the trim behaviour for spring stick users in the Mi 24 are eather using FFB or a no spring setup with a dry clutch.

 

 

 

 

What if I tell you that same thing happens to me if I use trim the way you do? When we did voice chat, I tould you that you are using the trim wrong, I told you that here in previous post and I am telling you again. 

You have no real life experience of how Mi-24 trim/AP system works, yet you think that it is wrong just because you think so. Same thing goes for sylkhan which said "he does not care about technical aspects, but it is wrong".

Anyway, you guys think you are correct, so there is no point in going further with this.

[sylkhan]

@admiki why do you think ED is tweaking trim for the Hind ?

I hope you are aware of the difference between now and before ? are you ?

[admiki]

22 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

@admiki why do you think ED is tweaking trim for the Hind ?

I hope you are aware of the difference between now and before ? are you ?

you said it yourself, you were trimming a lot

if you cared to listen you would figured out that that is the answer here

I'll admit that there is no good way to implement a system that works as Hind's does with central trimmer mode, but that does not make system itself wrong.

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, sylkhan said:

@admiki why do you think ED is tweaking trim for the Hind ?

I hope you are aware of the difference between now and before ? are you ?

What change is there since before last patch? I see now change. 

 

9 hours ago, River said:

Gloria, you are making crazy assumtions here.

I am neither "keep pulling back" as you wrote nor do I "keep pulling up".

I do NOT keep pulling back after trimming, I eather reset my return to center spring stick back to center within 0.5 seconds (instantly) in Instant trim mode or do the same when using Central position trim mode.

Once again, I do NOT give any input at all. Neither down, up, etc.

The stick simply goes back to center as supposed to when using Instant trim or Center trim option. 

Instant trim and Central trim option are there to avoid that for us spring stick users. You eather go back to center right away (INSTANT TRIM MODE) or you you decide when to go back to center. Till then your axis inputs are locked (CENTRAL TRIM MODE).

As stated above, I do NOT give ANY input. It is the AP that brings the aircraft to the before trim attitude.

INSTANT TRIM OPTION AND CENTRAL POSITION TRIM OPTION should prevent a spring stick setup giving inputs when returning the stick to center. 

The current state of the discussion is the only people defending the trim behaviour for spring stick users in the Mi 24 are eather using FFB or a no spring setup with a dry clutch.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps. But the matter still is the the AP isn’t perfect, and even if you aren’t deliberately pulling back or not, it will only work properly when trim button is released while aircraft is in perfectly stable flight. All your problems seemed to happen when you weren’t perfectly still, I have the same problems becuase the AP has it’s own issues. I trim two or three times until it’s stable. I’ll fly and voice chat with you but your video didn’t show anything to me but the AP trying to fight your movements left over from after trimming 

[River]

11 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

What change is there since before last patch? I see now change. 

 

Perhaps. But the matter still is the the AP isn’t perfect, and even if you aren’t deliberately pulling back or not, it will only work properly when trim button is released while aircraft is in perfectly stable flight. All your problems seemed to happen when you weren’t perfectly still, I have the same problems becuase the AP has it’s own issues. I trim two or three times until it’s stable. I’ll fly and voice chat with you but your video didn’t show anything to me but the AP trying to fight your movements left over from after trimming 

There is - - - NO - - - movement left over from after trimming, thats the point of the whole discussion. It's beyond me why this false statements are being repeated over and over again. It's getting tiresome. Completely false and crazy assumtions followed by extended explanations how the Mi 24 systems work in real life ... just to create an explanation to cover the false assumtions from the beginning. 

The stick is neutral, zeroed out. Same as you would have it in the real aircraft if you trim and don't move the cyclick anymore. 

We really need to get that out of the way, nobody here keeps pulling or pushing in any direction, nor do we fight an autopilot whatsoever. 

As another user already wrote, at this point nobody cares anymore what the AP is trying to do. In fact most of us have already a clear understanding what the AP is trying to achieve. At the end we have all read the same manual and available documents. It's now all about transfering the package into DCS. 

The current trim implementation in DCS would be extremely dangerous in real life. If the pilot would try to hold down trim and slipped off or doesn't get the trim button to stay depressed, the aircraft would give you a sudden, unwanted and hard to manage change in attitude.

Your biggest enemy would be your trim button. Just don't you never accidentally click the trim ... it could be a wild ride.

The aircraft would be good for a nice try exhibition piece in a museum but that's about it.

 

 

I can't feel any changes with the last patch btw. To me trim is still acting weird. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by River

[admiki]

OK, this will be my last post on this matter.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[River]

Thats great news !

The second line tells us a lot about yourself.

[Hammer1-1]

You know, he is technically correct whether you like it or not. If what you said is true, then the fix would have already been applied, correct? Unless you have experience in the actual vehicle, its very likely ED -rightly so- would only take your statement with a grain of salt. So should everyone else.

9 hours ago, River said:

Thats great news !

The second line tells us a lot about yourself.

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[AeriaGloria]

20 hours ago, River said:

There is - - - NO - - - movement left over from after trimming, thats the point of the whole discussion. It's beyond me why this false statements are being repeated over and over again. It's getting tiresome. Completely false and crazy assumtions followed by extended explanations how the Mi 24 systems work in real life ... just to create an explanation to cover the false assumtions from the beginning. 

The stick is neutral, zeroed out. Same as you would have it in the real aircraft if you trim and don't move the cyclick anymore. 

We really need to get that out of the way, nobody here keeps pulling or pushing in any direction, nor do we fight an autopilot whatsoever. 

As another user already wrote, at this point nobody cares anymore what the AP is trying to do. In fact most of us have already a clear understanding what the AP is trying to achieve. At the end we have all read the same manual and available documents. It's now all about transfering the package into DCS.

 

River, what in your opinion should be fixed about the AP?

20 hours ago, River said:

The current trim implementation in DCS would be extremely dangerous in real life. If the pilot would try to hold down trim and slipped off or doesn't get the trim button to stay depressed, the aircraft would give you a sudden, unwanted and hard to manage change in attitude.

Your biggest enemy would be your trim button. Just don't you never accidentally click the trim ... it could be a wild ride.

The aircraft would be good for a nice try exhibition piece in a museum but that's about it.

Here I think you present a fallacy. You say it doesn’t work right. But you also say if it does work right, this would never qualify as a combat aircraft. Which, I’m sure that alot of us have learned from DCS that military equipment, especially from the 70s, doesn’t always work perfect. MiG-21 with vodka coolant and limited brakes. 3 gun recharges only using explosive bolts. Soviet stuff didn’t always work perfect, and obviously the Soviets worked to perfect it by adding the dampening to Ka-50 when trim is pressed. 
 

Is 70s military aviation asset supposed to be safe in every way? I click trim all the time when AP is giving max input. It is a small jerk, that is easily corrected with a stick movement and trimming again. I would hardly call that dangerous to real life. You have to prepare for it by trimming frequently or holdings it down like the manual says

Real pilots have said it works this way. It’s in the manual. So if you could code what would you fix and where exactly is it wrong? Where is it returning to previous position? 
 

A centered stick doesn’t always mean 0 movement, it can react very fast to small movements. But anyways, I don’t think arguing that “becuase its not smooth the Soviet military would never have used it” will work, becuase I don’t think there’s many airplanes or helicopters that are perfect where there is Nothing that makes someone say “wow that doesn’t work amazingly and could never not be safe.”

So avoiding that, what would you change about the system?  
 

let’s go through your video trim by trim. You say there is no movement, so AP has nothing to fight after you trim. Unfortunetly I’m not sure time stamping works for embeds. This is my best guess of what’s happening in your video 
 

  At 0:40-0:41 seconds you trim, the AP giving down goes away when you press trim, causing a pitch up that still happens when trim is released and stick centered, so when AP re engages it has to go back to down input to stop pitch up. This also happens at 3:49-3:51 during your second mission 

It is the exact opposite with pitch down at 1;01-1:02, you pitch down, AP tries to pitch up, you press trim, AP goes away, causing pitch down, you release trim and center stick while down pitch still happens, so AP fights it with pitch up command like before. Same thing happens at 1:27-1:29

It works well at 1:18 here becuase you have very little nose movement during the trim release and stick centering.

At 1:47 is more complex. You give 20% back, press trim and center. Understand that with spring centered stick and center spring trim, it is forcing you to release trim in exact same spot that trim trim is pressed. So when you give 20% back and press trim, you are also telling AP move itself at around 20% back. The AP will copy your stick movement, you can see this on the ground. So when you press trim at 20% back, then release in center, AP thinks your actual center is 20% back. So it gives a lot of down input becuse the AP sees you giving 20% down input from last trimmed center. If you hadn’t pressed trim while pulling up, but while already stable, you would have had no such issues. This is what I meant by pulling up while pressing trim. This EXACT same thing happens when you start a second mission at 3:15-3:16. And again even more severely becuase AP is giving nearly full input at 3:58 time

  River, if you want to try and change things. You should make a seperate post here, not in a thread about deceleration oscillations. Make your own thread with your own tracks and your own video and your own title like “Mi-24 possible bug trim might not recenter completely,” and see if ED can do anything with that. 
 
Good luck. If the reason it shouldn’t be this way is “Soviet 70s Autopilots should be better,” then there’s nothing I can do. My only advice after this and watching your video a lot is to try and trim while nose stays perfectly still. And if it doesn’t stay still after trimming then trim again. 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[River]

On 12/20/2022 at 8:51 PM, AeriaGloria said:

River, what in your opinion should be fixed about the AP?

Here I think you present a fallacy. You say it doesn’t work right. But you also say if it does work right, this would never qualify as a combat aircraft. Which, I’m sure that alot of us have learned from DCS that military equipment, especially from the 70s, doesn’t always work perfect. MiG-21 with vodka coolant and limited brakes. 3 gun recharges only using explosive bolts. Soviet stuff didn’t always work perfect, and obviously the Soviets worked to perfect it by adding the dampening to Ka-50 when trim is pressed. 
 

Is 70s military aviation asset supposed to be safe in every way? I click trim all the time when AP is giving max input. It is a small jerk, that is easily corrected with a stick movement and trimming again. I would hardly call that dangerous to real life. You have to prepare for it by trimming frequently or holdings it down like the manual says

Real pilots have said it works this way. It’s in the manual. So if you could code what would you fix and where exactly is it wrong? Where is it returning to previous position? 
 

A centered stick doesn’t always mean 0 movement, it can react very fast to small movements. But anyways, I don’t think arguing that “becuase its not smooth the Soviet military would never have used it” will work, becuase I don’t think there’s many airplanes or helicopters that are perfect where there is Nothing that makes someone say “wow that doesn’t work amazingly and could never not be safe.”

So avoiding that, what would you change about the system?  
 

let’s go through your video trim by trim. You say there is no movement, so AP has nothing to fight after you trim. Unfortunetly I’m not sure time stamping works for embeds. This is my best guess of what’s happening in your video 
 

  At 0:40-0:41 seconds you trim, the AP giving down goes away when you press trim, causing a pitch up that still happens when trim is released and stick centered, so when AP re engages it has to go back to down input to stop pitch up. This also happens at 3:49-3:51 during your second mission 

It is the exact opposite with pitch down at 1;01-1:02, you pitch down, AP tries to pitch up, you press trim, AP goes away, causing pitch down, you release trim and center stick while down pitch still happens, so AP fights it with pitch up command like before. Same thing happens at 1:27-1:29

It works well at 1:18 here becuase you have very little nose movement during the trim release and stick centering.

At 1:47 is more complex. You give 20% back, press trim and center. Understand that with spring centered stick and center spring trim, it is forcing you to release trim in exact same spot that trim trim is pressed. So when you give 20% back and press trim, you are also telling AP move itself at around 20% back. The AP will copy your stick movement, you can see this on the ground. So when you press trim at 20% back, then release in center, AP thinks your actual center is 20% back. So it gives a lot of down input becuse the AP sees you giving 20% down input from last trimmed center. If you hadn’t pressed trim while pulling up, but while already stable, you would have had no such issues. This is what I meant by pulling up while pressing trim. This EXACT same thing happens when you start a second mission at 3:15-3:16. And again even more severely becuase AP is giving nearly full input at 3:58 time

  River, if you want to try and change things. You should make a seperate post here, not in a thread about deceleration oscillations. Make your own thread with your own tracks and your own video and your own title like “Mi-24 possible bug trim might not recenter completely,” and see if ED can do anything with that. 
 
Good luck. If the reason it shouldn’t be this way is “Soviet 70s Autopilots should be better,” then there’s nothing I can do. My only advice after this and watching your video a lot is to try and trim while nose stays perfectly still. And if it doesn’t stay still after trimming then trim again. 

 

 

This is what you wrote:

 " At 0:40-0:41 seconds you trim, the AP giving down goes away when you press trim, causing a pitch up that still happens when trim is released and stick centered, so when AP re engages it has to go back to down input to stop pitch up. This also happens at 3:49-3:51 during your second mission"

 

Truth is, this is the first explanation that makes sense !!! 

Now that we aren't talking anymore about additional inputs or that we keep pulling or pushing the stick it's leading to something. 

I'd like to highlight the important part first because it made a difference for me:

 

... "causing a pitch up that still happens when trim is released and stick centered"...

 

So in a real aircraft, the pilot would for example:

 

- give 20 % cyclic back (the AP is adding pitch down support), 

- click trim,

- doesn't move cyclic at all,

- the AP acting for pitch down disconnects,

- the aircraft pitches up because it wants to get to the "real, clean" attitude it should have without any AP support,

- the AP reconnects and stops the pitch up momentum by adding again pitch down support.

 

Is this little summary correct ? 

Edited December 22, 2022 by River

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, River said:

This is what you wrote:

 " At 0:40-0:41 seconds you trim, the AP giving down goes away when you press trim, causing a pitch up that still happens when trim is released and stick centered, so when AP re engages it has to go back to down input to stop pitch up. This also happens at 3:49-3:51 during your second mission"

Truth is, this is the first explanation that makes sense !!! 

Now that we aren't talking anymore about additional inputs or that we keep pulling or pushing the stick it's leading to something. 

I'd like to highlight the important part first because it made a difference for me:

... "causing a pitch up that still happens when trim is released and stick centered"...

So in a real aircraft, the pilot would for example:

- give 20 % cyclic back (the AP is adding pitch down support), 

- click trim,

- doesn't move cyclic at all,

- the AP acting for pitch down disconnects,

- the aircraft pitches up because it wants to get to the "real, clean" attitude it should have without any AP support,

- the AP reconnects and stops the pitch up momentum by adding again pitch down support.

 

Is this little summary correct ? 

Glad I could finally help. I would say your summary is exactly correct. As soon as trim is released it will fight anything. For what is happening In that scenario You have it right 

Also at one point you mentioned trim and I didn’t know if you meant you were holding 20% back, or had done it with trim button or trim hat. Trim hat can cause some weirdness. Since it tells AP to not recognize the change in stick movement, it makes AP often over react. I always tell people to only use it for small stuff. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[River]

I still think it shouldn't fly that way in DCS. Something about the trim doesn't feel right. Back in the hangar, will check again after a few patches. 

[Foka1]

On 8/18/2022 at 6:58 AM, MelonatorPL said:

Any updates regarding this issue? How high is this on the priority list of Mi24 bugs? This heli is my favorite module but it has been idle in the hangar due to the annoyance of this issue. Any chance for a reply from one of the devs? Thanks.

 

I think it is fixed already

[Schlomo1933]

It’s not fixed

[admiki]

11 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

It’s not fixed

I'm not seeing any problems.

Tested fully loaded and empty, level and descending deceleration.

[AeriaGloria]

22 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

It’s not fixed

Let me know why you think it’s not fixed or send a video or track. I haven’t noticed anything