Information about R-60 Missiles used as air to ground missile.

[SUBS17]

10 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

you have given your feedback, and you dont agree that is fine, but the back and forth isnt going to change the fact that it is possible. 

 

Does a real missile detect the Sun? I hear these stories that you are bringing up but there is no hard evidence of a Missile detecting the Sun on a real aircraft on a sunny day. Why would it not detect the Suns heat Source? It is assumed the Sun is a heat source but it is more Complex than that with Missiles and Targets. There could be a FILTER that removes the chance of a RUNAWAY MISSILE shooting towards the Sun. A modern missile could actually know that the Sun is not a target because of its PROFILE and software.

[SUBS17]

On 9/7/2022 at 7:32 AM, Harlikwin said:

Yeah I'm not arguing that point at all, its well documented that it was done. Though I really wonder how you guys are gonna model that. I guess you have heat values for vehicles for your FLIR model, but it doesn't really seem like there is anything for actual background objects, and honestly I haven't seen alot of studies on how effective targeting ground vehicles really was with different types of missiles, everything I've seen is highly anecdotal. 

9X ground targeting is a whole other can of worms since it actually has an imaging seeker where nothing this old did. 

Also found your missile in that photo, looks to be an AGM-87 FOCUS missile developed during VN at china lake. It was a sidewinder derivative but both the seeker section and guidance section were modified so it could better be used against ground targets. Very likely the spatial filtering was modified. 

Here it is on a Huey

 

The AIM 9 does not have spatial filtering. For Air to Ground a Missile requires more than filters to actually hit a ground target. For vehicles it would need something better like an AGM65 Seeker. The AGM65D has very good SEEKER for hitting Ground Targets.

[Get_Lo]

On 9/7/2022 at 1:09 PM, SUBS17 said:

They all feature SOLID STATE CIRCUITRY in order to function as an Air to Air Missile. 

Can you tell me what the AIM-9G was again, last I checked it was the first solid state sidewinder and none before had it, some after it didnt even have it and youre telling me this technology existed before the AIM-9B was even around? can you explain?

[Harlikwin]

12 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

Can you tell me what the AIM-9G was again, last I checked it was the first solid state sidewinder and none before had it, some after it didnt even have it and youre telling me this technology existed before the AIM-9B was even around? can you explain?

9G still had some tubes, 9H was the first fully solid state navy winder. 

[Get_Lo]

5 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

9G still had some tubes, 9H was the first fully solid state navy winder. 

9G was the first to incorporate solid state electronics though, no? wasnt that the whole point of the missile over the D aswell as SEAM

Edited September 10, 2022 by Get_Lo

[SUBS17]

They all feature Solid State Circuitry as it requires a lot of processes in order for the Missile to go after a target. With Solid State Circuitry it includes IC CHIPS and CPU's, MICROPROCESSORS. If you were to look at the insides of a missile it would have those Circuits even the earlier missiles. Other wise the Missile would not work at all as it requires CPU's in order to calculate its trajectory and go after the target. You cannot accomplish the same with simple Circuitry because of the types of Sensors involved. Everything has to be smaller and lighter for the missile to be practical on the aircraft. 

[SUBS17]

6 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

9G still had some tubes, 9H was the first fully solid state navy winder. 

Tubes? There would not be valves in a missile because they do not function under vibration. The missile would be the size of a truck and probably still not work if valves were involved.

[Aquorys]

1.)

10 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

With Solid State Circuitry it includes IC CHIPS and CPU's, MICROPROCESSORS. If you were to look at the insides of a missile it would have those Circuits even the earlier missiles.

That is false information.

"Because of the design of the optical system, the AIM-9B was strictly a tail aspect weapon, as it was blind to anything cooler than a tailpipe. The modest 11 deg/sec seeker tracking rate limited the weapon to non-maneuvering targets. All seeker electronics were built from vacuum tubes. A hot gas generator provided actuator power for the nose canards, and was limited to a 20 sec burn duration before exhaustion. Unlike other missiles of the day, the Sidewinder did not employ active roll stabilisation (via gyros and differential control input), instead employing rollerons, ie slipstream spun metal discs embedded in the trailing edge of the wingtips, which acted as four tiny gyros stabilising the missile mechanically. The engineer who thought of that certainly earned his paycheck."
- Source (the author of this page has published multiple peer-reviewed journals in the subject area of air defense)

Infrared guided missiles reached IOC in 1956, the first integrated circuits (ICs) were invented in 1960, and there were no IC microprocessors available until 1971. The designers of this microprocessor (Hoff, Faggin and Shima) were 12, 8 and 6 years old when the first IR guided missiles were tested, so I am pretty sure they weren't secretly building microprocessors for the military back then.

 

2.)

Here is a documentary video  made by the Technical Information Division, NAVAIR Weapons Division at China Lake mentioning that the Sidewinder could be locked onto ground targets - the original question of this thread - I have linked the time, but in case it doesn't work, it's at 35:20.

 

3.)

This is how infrared missile guidance actually works, and it does not require integrated circuits, solid state electronics, microprocessors or software. All it needs is a sensor, a gyro, a phase detector, a couple amplifiers, servos and some rather obvious supporting parts like a power source.

This description is from the original document describing the AIM-9B missile. This was originally a classified document (at the confidential sensitivity level), but it had an automatic declassification notice for 1978 on it, and the particular document that I copied this out of is also explicitly marked as having been declassified, so I think there should be no problems with posting it now.

This document is from 1966.

 

[SUBS17]

There were IC Chips in the early days and the names mentioned did not invent them. The CIRCUITRY for the SEEKER is not compatible with a VACUUM TUBE! The IC CHIPS are required as a missiles circuit is quite large and it is not possible to create an infra red guided missile without them. IC CHIPS and SOLID STATE CIRCUITRY are a complex topic. Their CREATION is COMPLEX and involves PARTICLE CONDUCTIVITY! Making a missile see something is what it is all about and then being able to guide itself efficiently to the target and hit it. It is a COMPLEX type of ROCKET an AIM9 or R60 it involves an earlier form of MISSILE GUIDANCE. They also need to know where the ground is as GRAVITY is part of the CALCULATION of the INTERCEPT. So there are Sensors in the missile itself to know the AIRSPEED, ALTITUDE and AoA. Air pressure is also a part of the equation of the rockets flight.  The SUB CIRCUITS in that diagram are INCOMPLETE and those CIRCUITS would be SOILD STATE with some  MICROPROCESSOR's to run it. The latest missiles can hit targets OFF BORESIGHT like the Aim 9X and R73. That uses something else in order to see the aircraft outside the missiles Sensor zone. 

[Harlikwin]

23 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

9G was the first to incorporate solid state electronics though, no? wasnt that the whole point of the missile over the D aswell as SEAM

 

Yeah It was a hybrid AFAIK. Pretty typical electronically of that era where engineers knew how to do some stuff better analog, and other stuff could be done digitally. A/D sampling was the major issue back then, which wasn't really solved "well" till the mid/late 70's. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Harlikwin

[Harlikwin]

21 hours ago, SUBS17 said:

Tubes? There would not be valves in a missile because they do not function under vibration. The missile would be the size of a truck and probably still not work if valves were involved.

Well the guy just above showed you how wrong that was, but plenty of early missiles used vacuum tube electronics. 

[BIGNEWY]

@SUBS17 unless you can show evidence your argument is not going to go anywhere. 
 

[SUBS17]

8 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

@SUBS17 unless you can show evidence your argument is not going to go anywhere. 
 

You will not get any further information in more detail because the rest would be secret but it is a complex missile. You can assume what you like but it does not change your circumstances. 

[BIGNEWY]

2 minutes ago, SUBS17 said:

You will not get any further information in more detail because the rest would be secret but it is a complex missile. You can assume what you like but it does not change your circumstances. 

Ok you have no more information to share that can be verified as facts. 

thank you

[drPhibes]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Ok you have no more information to share that can be verified as facts. 

thank you

You'd be hard pressed to find a single fact in all of his 4.6k posts. I'm not trying to tell the mods how to do their jobs, but the fact that there have been no consequences for sabotaging countless serious discussions is beyond my comprehension. His delusional ramblings are basically forum poison.

[Avimimus]

Back to the original question. Some Soviet anti-ship missiles had a secondary mode for use against ground targets. Furthermore, some Russian anti-radiation missiles had secondary anti-awacs modes/modifications.

So I am actually wondering if Soviet doctrine tended to conceive of the possibility of 'any weapon against any target' in an emergency?  I'm actually wondering if they might've considered air-to-surface use during development/deployment... as it seems plausible now.

P.S. Recently we've even seen long-range SAMs modified as surface-to-surface weapons. Although this seems to be more improvised, like the  use of AIM-4 against ground-targets in Vietnam.

[BIGNEWY]

thread cleaned, please remember to treat everyone with respect when posting.

[BIGNEWY]

This thread is done now thank you all for your feedback