How's the DCS ATC System coming along in Dev????

[Hawk_UK]

You know it really annoys me when we have been shouting for the ATC system in DCS to be properly implemented for years and years, and then guess what.... ED announces a full in depth weather system is being implemented into DCS and apparently is already well in development & testing & soon to be released & implemented for DCS.... WHY????

I say why simply because we've been shouting for a full proper ATC system to be implemented for years, a system that surely should have a higher priority than a weather system.....
A proper real world ATC system, despite apparently years of it being worked on in the background, has not yet been implemented or indeed have we seen any evidence that it is being currently developed or even worked on for DCS.... and no excuses about the vast array of spoken statements needed for it, Ed's had literally years to be slowly recording all the spoken parts needed for a full ATC System, so that is no excuse anymore.... I suspect what's been happening is that simply other ideas and money making ideas have continually side-lined such non-direct-profit projects as the ATC and Dynamic campaign systems that have been promised for SO SO many years now.... ED's literally running out of excuses and indeed time I would suggest with the massive increases in other developers interest in developing high fidelity flight sims.... all it will take is another dev company that creates a high fidelity military combat sim world and DCS would be in grave danger of simply being dumped out of the market.... the tech is there today for this to happen... all it would take is a dev team to do it and ED would be in deep sh*t.

The way ED should be prioritising projects is not only for the direct money making projects BUT also the projects that will bring in so many more users and therefore customers for DCS World and it's modules... especially the projects like the ATC and Dynamic campaign system that will add so much in depth role-play and participation to DCS world than it's capable of now which is currently very little in comparison....

C'mon ED.... Get to it MR, get your priorities right or end-up losing out altogether!!! 
 

[Aquorys]

22 minutes ago, Hawk_UK said:

I say why simply because we've been shouting for a full proper ATC system to be implemented for years, a system that surely should have a higher priority than a weather system....

Personally, I agree, but I guess everyone wants something else. Ask a thousand people, get a whole bunch of different answers with regards to what they want to be done first.

24 minutes ago, Hawk_UK said:

all it will take is another dev company that creates a high fidelity military combat sim world and DCS would be in grave danger of simply being dumped out of the market.... the tech is there today for this to happen... all it would take is a dev team to do it and ED would be in deep sh*t

I think you underestimate the effort it takes to create any kind of game, much less a network-capable multiplayer 3D/VR high fidelity flight simulator. It's not as if someone could just sit down at their PC for a month or two and replicate something like DCS. Try recreating your own version of something as seemingly simple as Windows Solitaire or Pinball, and then let's talk again about how anyone is going to pop up on the market with something like DCS out of nowhere.

That being said, I also understand your frustration with the current ATC system. Considering that the game has always been marketed as being as realistic as possible, I think the ATC should not have been as far off as it still is to begin with. And I don't even mean that it should have been smarter when it's still work in progress, but at least the phraseology could have been a bit closer to reality right from the start. The exact same functions could say "startup approved" instead of "cleared for startup", or "request clearance for departure" instead of "request takeoff".

But again, in ED's defense, I will say that they are not performing worse than others. For example, take a look at this quite well-known MilSim game that also claims to be so very realistic. Being mainly an infantry simulator, you'd think they would start with realistic weapons, but guess what, magazines do weird things when you reload, rifle scopes behave kinda funny, and bipods don't work at all. Don't get me started on rifle cant and other ballistic problems.

Compared to that, ATC actually seems like a smaller problem, I mean, at least your primary tools in this game, the aircraft, fly pretty well.

[MAXsenna]

Well, maybe the ATC depends on weather and the dynamic campaign in a way?

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, Aquorys said:

That being said, I also understand your frustration with the current ATC system. Considering that the game has always been marketed as being as realistic as possible, I think the ATC should not have been as far off as it still is to begin with. And I don't even mean that it should have been smarter when it's still work in progress, but at least the phraseology could have been a bit closer to reality right from the start. The exact same functions could say "startup approved" instead of "cleared for startup", or "request clearance for departure" instead of "request takeoff".

It's pretty much a somewhat clueless translation of Russian phraseology, which AFAIK is more or less correct. Back in LOMAC days, the ATC was good enough, at least as far as Russian planes went. The problem is, well, it's not LOMAC days anymore, and it hasn't been for a while. We need a new system made from scratch, and it's a big task.

[sirrah]

Well, imho, weather improvements were more urgent than ATC.

Remember those rotating cotton balls in TrackIR and VR? It was so bad, I literally only flew clear sky and overcast..

 

Although apparently many folks here think otherwise, ED probably knows best as to what should be prioritized over what. I mean, after all these years DCS is still very much alive and the user base is larger than it ever was.

[Weasel]

As ED already stated, they don’t only overhaul ATC, they overhaul all radio communication (JTAC, AWACS, Tanker etc) together with ATC and this is a big task. Please don‘t forget that about half of the engineers are working on core system. Yes I am also eagerly awaiting new ATC and radio but we have to be patient. It‘s comming but iirc they first finish ATC for supercarrier and then they move to airfield ATC (or they already began working on it shortly)

This year is a great year and we got a lot of new functions. Really looking forward to see what‘s comming next! 

[WRAITH]

i know i know i know but we are getting older...............

 

[Hawk_UK]

On 8/26/2022 at 7:33 AM, sirrah said:

Well, imho, weather improvements were more urgent than ATC.

Remember those rotating cotton balls in TrackIR and VR? It was so bad, I literally only flew clear sky and overcast..

 

Although apparently many folks here think otherwise, ED probably knows best as to what should be prioritized over what. I mean, after all these years DCS is still very much alive and the user base is larger than it ever was.

DCS is still very much alive because they have no competition at all.... makes it easy to stay alive don't you think when your product is basically the only modern product out there.

Properly implemented ATC would give DCS some much needed depth & immersion rather than simply flying around shooting at targets, don't you think?

Same with the replay play-back system in DCS... it's terrible! And it's been totally neglected for over a decade and more!!
Now don't you think that if they fixed the replay system then it would make it so much easier to produce YouTube videos from users replay footage that in turn would greatly help promote DCS and in turn would result in more sales of DCS Modules turning a greater profit for ED & DCS..... ED is simply overlooking the benefits of many features that ED is currently ignoring or very VERY slow in implementing.....

Then of course we have the Dynamic Campaign, but seeing as ED says it is in development and currently being worked on then some more patience is deserved considering the large task at hand on this one.

[Tom Kazansky]

20 minutes ago, Hawk_UK said:

On 8/26/2022 at 8:33 AM, sirrah said:

DCS is still very much alive because they have no competition at all.... makes it easy to stay alive don't you think when your product is basically the only modern product out there.

To me that says it is not easy at all when no one but you provides such a product. Easy things don't come without competitors imho.

[Hawk_UK]

1 hour ago, Tom Kazansky said:

To me that says it is not easy at all when no one but you provides such a product. Easy things don't come without competitors imho.

But that's the thing..... DCS will soon not be the only product to choose from, and if ED doesn't pull his finger out then DCS could well be in deep sh*t mate if an alternative comes along with all the bells and whistles straight out of the box from the get-go.

[Tom Kazansky]

27 minutes ago, Hawk_UK said:

But that's the thing..... DCS will soon not be the only product to choose from, and if ED doesn't pull his finger out then DCS could well be in deep sh*t mate if an alternative comes along with all the bells and whistles straight out of the box from the get-go.

Agreed. But it almost scares me to imagine that this kind of dedication, passion and commitment should not be enough. I got your point though.

 

[sirrah]

7 hours ago, Hawk_UK said:

Properly implemented ATC would give DCS some much needed depth & immersion rather than simply flying around shooting at targets, don't you think?

Same with the replay play-back system in DCS... it's terrible! And it's been totally neglected for over a decade and more!!
Now don't you think that if they fixed the replay system then it would make it so much easier to produce YouTube videos from users replay footage that in turn would greatly help promote DCS and in turn would result in more sales of DCS Modules turning a greater profit for ED & DCS..... ED is simply overlooking the benefits of many features that ED is currently ignoring or very VERY slow in implementing.....
 

Of course I also would like to see all these improvements. Anyone who loves this sim would like to see the core features improve further. There are however tons of things that we all want to see added, not just ATC and the DC. Things like multithreading, airfield ground crew, expanding the static object library, save function, improved AI, improved AI 3D models, dynamic weather, more ships, better/more infantry, ... I could go on for a while..

But I also understand that all these things are a massive task, for a relatively small dev team and I accept that this takes (a lot) of time. 

Although one could say "ED should stop making new modules and invest/focus entirely on core improvements", I wonder for how long they could do that before running out of money to pay the entire dev team. That's why I said, ED probably knows best what to do, in order to evolve further.

 

 

(You probably shouldn't link it here due to forum rules, but I really wonder which potential sim you mean when saying "competition is around the corner". I can't imagine any new software developer being able to produce something remotely close to what ED has been working on to achieve with DCS for so many years and with so many SME's)

[WRAITH]

4 hours ago, sirrah said:

Of course I also would like to see all these improvements. Anyone who loves this sim would like to see the core features improve further. There are however tons of things that we all want to see added, not just ATC and the DC. Things like multithreading, airfield ground crew, expanding the static object library, save function, improved AI, improved AI 3D models, dynamic weather, more ships, better/more infantry, ... I could go on for a while..

But I also understand that all these things are a massive task, for a relatively small dev team and I accept that this takes (a lot) of time. 

Although one could say "ED should stop making new modules and invest/focus entirely on core improvements", I wonder for how long they could do that before running out of money to pay the entire dev team. That's why I said, ED probably knows best what to do, in order to evolve further.

 

 

(You probably shouldn't link it here due to forum rules, but I really wonder which potential sim you mean when saying "competition is around the corner". I can't imagine any new software developer being able to produce something remotely close to what ED has been working on to achieve with DCS for so many years and with so many SME's)

Very diplomatic response this is the normal from community, and I am not attacking you the person but rather that, first... the essential elements of the sim

1. ATC AND ADDITIONAL SYSTEMS
2. WEATHER - LIVE AND DYNAMIC A.I
3. DYNAMIC CAMPAIGN ENGINE
4. GLOBAL MAP AND AIRBASES + TRAINING RANGES
5. BLUE VS RED AIRCRAFT + COMPLETION OF SYSTEMS AND FLIGHT MODEL
6. A.I AND FLIGHT MODELING
7. COMBINED ARMS REFINEMENT AND COMPLETION
8. COMMERCIAL AVIATION

IN THAT ORDER HAVE BEEN LONG OVERDUE!

Now the above statement all well and good but hey over 15 years for the above, c'mon now...... c'mon

THERE ARE SO MANY MODULES NOT NEEDED NEITHER DID WE NEED TO IMPLEMENT WW1 AND WW2 STUFF WHEN PRIORITY IS SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOR THE ABOVE..... SORRY NOT SHOUTING JUST NEEDED TO BE CLEAR.

People are done waiting can't you see community has down sized, c'mon now

 

I personally want one sim with everything in it, I think that's the direction sims should take, simply because of how long everything takes and its not like the 80's-90's where sims were thriving with many companies doing their own thing, times have changed........... AND THE COSTS HAVE ALSO!

 

Cant get this stuff on CD ROM AND WITH A BOX OF GOODIES ANYMORE RIGHT!

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by WRAITH

[sirrah]

58 minutes ago, WRAITH said:

Very diplomatic response this is the normal from community, and I am not attacking you the person but rather that, first... the essential elements of the sim

1. ATC AND ADDITIONAL SYSTEMS
2. WEATHER - LIVE AND DYNAMIC A.I
3. DYNAMIC CAMPAIGN ENGINE
4. GLOBAL MAP AND AIRBASES + TRAINING RANGES
5. BLUE VS RED AIRCRAFT + COMPLETION OF SYSTEMS AND FLIGHT MODEL
6. A.I AND FLIGHT MODELING
7. COMBINED ARMS REFINEMENT AND COMPLETION
8. COMMERCIAL AVIATION

IN THAT ORDER HAVE BEEN LONG OVERDUE!

Now the above statement all well and good but hey over 15 years for the above, c'mon now...... c'mon

THERE ARE SO MANY MODULES NOT NEEDED NEITHER DID WE NEED TO IMPLEMENT WW1 AND WW2 STUFF WHEN PRIORITY IS SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOR THE ABOVE..... SORRY NOT SHOUTING JUST NEEDED TO BE CLEAR.

People are done waiting can't you see community has down sized, c'mon now

 

I personally want one sim with everything in it, I think that's the direction sims should take, simply because of how long everything takes and its not like the 80's-90's where sims were thriving with many companies doing their own thing, times have changed........... AND THE COSTS HAVE ALSO!

 

Cant get this stuff on CD ROM AND WITH A BOX OF GOODIES ANYMORE RIGHT!

Not sure why all the CAPS and "c'mon" is needed in this discussion, but I'll assume that's just frustration and love for DCS talking

First of all, let's agree that we're all eager to see improvements. The sooner the better, as indeed we're not getting any younger. Definitely no offense meant, but some are perhaps just a bit more patient and less vocal than others about it.

 

Also, and now I'm not attacking you in person here , the elements you listed as essential, might be the highest of priorities for you, but it's still a very personal list. I for one would prefer performance optimization over anything else. Everyone has their own list of priorities and although most of these lists will be more or less the same with probably a different priority order, I still expect ED to know best at what (and when) to spend their resources on. All these "why is it taking so long" threads, despite all good intentions, are kinda pointless... It's not like ED will read it and think:

"Hey, this random guy is asking for the dynamic campaign (or ATC, or Vulkan, ...). Why didn't we think of that? Let's start working on that now".

 

Again, not my intention to offend you or anyone else here, just continuing the conversation 

[impreza]

3 hours ago, WRAITH said:

Very diplomatic response this is the normal from community, and I am not attacking you the person but rather that, first... the essential elements of the sim

1. ATC AND ADDITIONAL SYSTEMS
2. WEATHER - LIVE AND DYNAMIC A.I
3. DYNAMIC CAMPAIGN ENGINE
4. GLOBAL MAP AND AIRBASES + TRAINING RANGES
5. BLUE VS RED AIRCRAFT + COMPLETION OF SYSTEMS AND FLIGHT MODEL
6. A.I AND FLIGHT MODELING
7. COMBINED ARMS REFINEMENT AND COMPLETION
8. COMMERCIAL AVIATION

IN THAT ORDER HAVE BEEN LONG OVERDUE!

Now the above statement all well and good but hey over 15 years for the above, c'mon now...... c'mon

THERE ARE SO MANY MODULES NOT NEEDED NEITHER DID WE NEED TO IMPLEMENT WW1 AND WW2 STUFF WHEN PRIORITY IS SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOR THE ABOVE..... SORRY NOT SHOUTING JUST NEEDED TO BE CLEAR.

People are done waiting can't you see community has down sized, c'mon now

 

I personally want one sim with everything in it, I think that's the direction sims should take, simply because of how long everything takes and its not like the 80's-90's where sims were thriving with many companies doing their own thing, times have changed........... AND THE COSTS HAVE ALSO!

 

Cant get this stuff on CD ROM AND WITH A BOX OF GOODIES ANYMORE RIGHT!

 

 

 

 

I gree but dynamic campaign is like make the same missions again and again. I prefer more AI units in land, sea and air, including 5th gen and drones with EFM. All type of comms have to be more realistic. 

[Hawk_UK]

13 hours ago, sirrah said:

Of course I also would like to see all these improvements. Anyone who loves this sim would like to see the core features improve further. There are however tons of things that we all want to see added, not just ATC and the DC. Things like multithreading, airfield ground crew, expanding the static object library, save function, improved AI, improved AI 3D models, dynamic weather, more ships, better/more infantry, ... I could go on for a while..

But I also understand that all these things are a massive task, for a relatively small dev team and I accept that this takes (a lot) of time. 

Although one could say "ED should stop making new modules and invest/focus entirely on core improvements", I wonder for how long they could do that before running out of money to pay the entire dev team. That's why I said, ED probably knows best what to do, in order to evolve further.

 

 

(You probably shouldn't link it here due to forum rules, but I really wonder which potential sim you mean when saying "competition is around the corner". I can't imagine any new software developer being able to produce something remotely close to what ED has been working on to achieve with DCS for so many years and with so many SME's)

Mate.... if you cared to read the thread, the link to a military flight sim in dev and close to release has already been posted here above in the thread.... take a look then come back and tell me ED's got all the time in the world to implement these features.....

The fact is that ED ain't alone in the Military Flight sim market anymore.... Like I said ED should keep an eye on his six or he'll wake up one morning to a nasty surprise!

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, Hawk_UK said:

Mate.... if you cared to read the thread, the link to a military flight sim in dev and close to release has already been posted here above in the thread.... take a look then come back and tell me ED's got all the time in the world to implement these features.....

The fact is that ED ain't alone in the Military Flight sim market anymore.... Like I said ED should keep an eye on his six or he'll wake up one morning to a nasty surprise!

Hi back at you mate  (always nice to make new friends).

Sorry, I missed that link/video (and so did ED's forum moderators so it seems ). Sure, let's see what they can come up with. I've been trying to find some more detailed info about MIS a few months ago, but unfortunately there isn't much to go on. At the time I couldn't even find if they where aiming for the general public, or for military clients. I did see they were developing it using the Varjo, which means VR is on their scope. That's a good start. I wish 'em all the luck, honestly. Perhaps some competition could be good. I just don't expect it'll threaten ED anytime soon. It may very well look beautiful and run better in VR, who knows, I just don't think they'll be able to match all the realism we have within DCS after all these years of development.

As I think this discussion is nearing forum rule 1.15, I'll leave it at this

[Hawk_UK]

So we are not allowed to talk about potential competitors on this forum??? That's very very worrying indeed.... I mean what is this, a fascist NAZI German state of 1940's we are living under or a free modern democratic society.... and what about freedom of speech, eh?? Has all that gone by the wayside out of immature childish fears?? It's pathetic!

[Art-J]

^ Eh... A more general note, off-topic maybe, but still. You seem to be mixing up freedom with anarchy. Oh well, not the first and not the last guy on the internet that does so, though it always puzzles me where do guys like you come from?

Freedom of speech hasn't gone anywhere, but neither did the holy right of the owner to decide what behaviour the guests must follow while visiting his house. You're proudly presenting "UK" in your nick, while ignoring "my castle my rules" at the same time? It doesn't add up.

Key difference: private sector vs public sector.

We're here on a forum belonging to, and maintained by, a private, commercial company, created specifically for discussion and advertisement of their products. It's their house and inside of it they're free to make whatever rules they fancy, just like any private business out there should be able to do. Small pub in the suburbs, or a Microsoft company, doesn't matter. If ED doesn't want competition exposure here (which sounds quite obvious and logical when you think about it), then so be it. 

There are still places where you and I or anyone can express views more freely - non-commercial, community forums, like SimHQ for example. That's OK, they should exist and they have their place, although even they don't come out of the blue and you have to follow some rules to stay away from the ban hammer.