The Hind and the AP channels.

[admiki]

5 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

You should still use trim button to reset and update AP to hold current attitude. I was just use instant trim, pedal trim at your preference. To have constant Yaw AP dampening you need to set MicroSwitch settings as “Automatic Off” and set the Y key “Yaw channel Align ON/OFF” to a switch or something that will hold It in the on position. 
 

 

@II.JG1_Vonrd Instant trim is for FFB sticks only. It will double your input every time you press FTR. Use "joystick with no springs and FFB" for stick, pedal trim is no good option, but since you don't have springs, disable pedal trim completely.

3 hours ago, Hiob said:

There is still a question mark for me, since there is no visual feedback. Normally (or sometimes) I have the two different bindings for the on and off position which allows me to bind them to a two position switch. In this case I‘m not sure how it works. Is it „alternate with each depress“ or „on whilst depressed“?

Watch yaw AP window. If it's in heading hold, spindle will be all the way towards your original heading if you start to turn. In dampening mode it will stay in centre.

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Is there a setting that allows microswitches to be always on without the use of 3rd party software?

If you don't have physical switch that stays in place, no.

Edited September 26, 2022 by admiki

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, admiki said:

If you don't have physical switch that stays in place, no.

Okay, I have to say that this is pretty lame. I have now tried the Hind after a long time, and I have to say that I like the changes it flies much more like you would expect it to, however this one little thing is annoying. Pushing (and holding) button on my joystick to simulate something that is done with feet feels very strange!

@NineLine is there any way that you can get back to the developers with our feedback and ask for this to be made an option in the settings that we can just toggle? Thank you. 

[AeriaGloria]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Okay, I have to say that this is pretty lame. I have now tried the Hind after a long time, and I have to say that I like the changes it flies much more like you would expect it to, however this one little thing is annoying. Pushing (and holding) button on my joystick to simulate something that is done with feet feels very strange!

@NineLine is there any way that you can get back to the developers with our feedback and ask for this to be made an option in the settings that we can just toggle? Thank you. 

It would certianly be nice to have a toggle option. I’ve been thinking of making a bug report, apparently the yaw AP is forced into dampening mode if you turn off the pedal hydraulic damper on the instrument panel. In game it shuts off Yaw AP completely. That would work as a toggle, would people be interested in that? 
 

It’s explained in a manual that the yaw dampener essentially takes the place of the hydraulic pedal damper to reduce forces on the tail boom 

However for currently, if you are interested in using joystick gremlin to turn a button into a toggle, i or Admiki can probably show you. Admiki might even have a profile you can use. Only other option is to fly without yaw AP

[Hiob]

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I need to recap and see if I understood now. Please correct me if necessary.

In the real Aircraft when Yaw AP is active you are basically in a Heading Hold mode unless you put force onto the pedals, which will activate micro-switches that will cancel the hold mode momentarily and revert to "just" yaw dampening (which is just an input dampener to prevent erratic movement and overstressing the tail boom?) until released again. It will then re-engage the heading hold (with the new heading).

Since we have no micro-switches on our input devices, we can depress the microswitches "by hand" with the keybind for "Yaw channel Align ON/OFF". Correct? So, if we don't want any "Hold" whatsoever, but keep the input dampening - we need to keep the "Yaw channel Align ON/OFF" depressed?

Edited September 26, 2022 by Hiob

[admiki]

27 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I need to recap and see if I understood now. Please correct me if necessary.

In the real Aircraft when Yaw AP is active you are basically in a Heading Hold mode unless you put force onto the pedals, which will activate micro-switches that will cancel the hold mode momentarily and revert to "just" yaw dampening (which is just an input dampener to prevent erratic movement and overstressing the tail boom?) until released again. It will then re-engage the heading hold (with the new heading).

Since we have no micro-switches on our input devices, we can depress the microswitches "by hand" with the keybind for "Yaw channel Align ON/OFF". Correct? So, if we don't want any "Hold" whatsoever, but keep the input dampening - we need to keep the "Yaw channel Align ON/OFF" depressed?

 

Correct.

Only thing that is not right per se in your statement is putting "force" on pedals. Heading hold is not default flight mode (as in, you usualy keep your feet on pedals).

Pedals ( foot plate, not rudder pedals as a whole) pivot around a point that is on bottom of foot plate and microswitches are under foot plate. Pedals are mounted at such angle that by just placing your feet on pedals you will depress foot plates and activate switches. Now, I don't know if both microswitches have to be activated to get out of heading hold mode or just either one is enough. Also, it doesn't dampen inputs (that's what pedal dampener is for), it dampens movement. What is the difference? You fly and turbulence kicks your tail (happens more than you think), yaw AP will take care of it for you. Tail wagging is called fish-tailing and can induce nausea real quick. Every airliner has yaw damper on as soon as it leaves the ground.

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by admiki

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, admiki said:

Correct.

Only thing that is not right per se in your statement is putting "force" on pedals. Pedals ( foot plate, not rudder pedals as a whole) pivot around a point that is on bottom of foot plate and microswitches are under foot plate. Pedals are mounted at such angle that by just placing your feet on pedals you will depress foot plates and activate switches. Now, I don't know if both microswitches have to be activated to get out of heading hold mode or just either one is enough.

Heading hold is not default flight mode (as in, you usualy keep your feet on pedals).

got it. thank you. By "force" I really meant weight - like in "weight on wheels" , but I think that doesn't make much difference for our purposes.

[admiki]

1 minute ago, Hiob said:

got it. thank you. By "force" I really meant weight - like in "weight on wheels" , but I think that doesn't make much difference for our purposes.

Edited my post for a bit more details

[Hiob]

7 minutes ago, admiki said:

12 minutes ago, admiki said:

Also, it doesn't dampen inputs (that's what pedal dampener is for), it dampens movement. What is the difference? You fly and turbulence kicks your tail (happens more than you think), yaw AP will take care of it for you. Tail wagging is called fish-tailing and can induce nausea real quick. Every airliner has yaw damper on as soon as it leaves the ground.

 

 

Edited my post for a bit more details

Thanks for the details! I guess this is why heavy Aircraft legaly need a type rating on top of a Pilots Licence.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Hiob

[AeriaGloria]

46 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I need to recap and see if I understood now. Please correct me if necessary.

In the real Aircraft when Yaw AP is active you are basically in a Heading Hold mode unless you put force onto the pedals, which will activate micro-switches that will cancel the hold mode momentarily and revert to "just" yaw dampening (which is just an input dampener to prevent erratic movement and overstressing the tail boom?) until released again. It will then re-engage the heading hold (with the new heading).

Since we have no micro-switches on our input devices, we can depress the microswitches "by hand" with the keybind for "Yaw channel Align ON/OFF". Correct? So, if we don't want any "Hold" whatsoever, but keep the input dampening - we need to keep the "Yaw channel Align ON/OFF" depressed?

 

  I will attach a video by @molevitch of his real life Mil pedals. You can see the microswitch actuation. It takes very little force. The intent is that only when feet are off the pedals are the microswitches released and I’m heading hold. 
 

  The manual mentions that, it if you need to move pedals while keeping heading hold activate, you need to press the bottom of the pedals with your heels, becuase the micro switches are on the top of the pedals. 
 

  Now, Mi-8 doesn’t have Yaw Dampening mode of AP. Mi-24 likely has it becuase the swept wings produce large amounts of Dutch roll at high speed (which already has 12 degrees anhedral to reduce Dutch roll, if you look at first Mi-24A prototypes you will see the wing was straight) and the yaw AP dampener helps slow down and reduce the yaw movements that cause dutch roll. 

   The hydraulic cylinder damper in the pedals (called SDV-5000-OA), as you see in sim it slows down your pedals, and if you move them at it’s limit the yellow “high pedal push rate” light comes on. This hydraulic cylinder is the one that is primarily for reducing stress on the tail boom as well as reducing Dutch roll. 
 

  Since you can disable this SDV-5000-OA hydraulic damper cylinder in the pedals with a red guarded switch by the landing gear. Once it’s disabled the Yaw AP is forced into dampening mode to make sure that even if disabling the SDV-5000-OA means you can move the pedals as fast as you want, the Yaw AP in dampening mode will slow down any yaw movement to make sure that Dutch roll and tail boom stress is minimized. This isn’t implemented in game, but if it was would give you a good way to toggle off heading hold mode permanently. As Admiki said, the Yaw AP dampening mode isn’t damoening inputs, but if you move the pedals it will slow down the increase in yaw rate, and as you relax the pedals will slow down the decrease in yaw rate. 
 

  This same hydraulic cylinder SDV-5000-OA is the same thing that is automatically trimming the pedals when heading hold mode reaches its limit. You see this in Mi-8 also. When the auto trimming happens you will see that they move at the same max rate of the pedals with hydraulic damper turned on. 
 

  I believe Admiki answered all your other questions! 
 

Even with Yaw Dampener on in game and pedal hydraulic cylinder, you will still see Dutch roll in game but it’s very small compared to Dutch roll with Yaw AP and SDV-5000-OA off. Just yaw left or right fast and you willl see it try to roll with yaw. Sometimes this can cause a back and forth movement/oscillation, and kill you as the wing on the outside of the turn produces more drag(which from a sideslip with swept wings, one wing becomes less swept then the other, and thus produces more drag and lift), causing opposite yaw and starting it all over again. So to be precise it’s not really yaw that causes Dutch roll, but sideslip. 
 

As Admiki said, Yaw AP dampeners were basically installed as mandatory on all planes/helicopters with Dutch roll characteristics and especially airlines. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Hiob]

@AeriaGloria, @admiki I appreciate the professional and detailed explanations!

[ebabil]

Hi

After the last update, when I hit the alt hold button, nothing happens, it keeps off even with no collective input and straight flight 

[AeriaGloria]

10 hours ago, ebabil said:

Hi

After the last update, when I hit the alt hold button, nothing happens, it keeps off even with no collective input and straight flight 

 

If it’s not an issue for the latest patch…. If you are pressing the square button on the top of the  panel that says “ALT” in English cockpit, you are pressing Hover Radar Altitude hold.

 

  The right most button on the bottom is the barometric altitude hold. Barometric altitude home works at any time, but the Hover Radar Altitude hold only works when Hover mode is on, under 50 kmh ground speed and within doppler angle limits. 
 

Perhaps It could be labeled in English to be more clear

 

 But if it is an issue from the newest patch which I haven’t flown yet, the altitude hold channels have always worked as intended before (As long as you press “ Off” before needing barometric hold after using Radar hold). Only thing that can disable Barometric Altitude hold is pressing collective clutch, which the settings seem to work for right. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[ebabil]

No I am talking about circle button at the very bottom right. It always worked so far but now it didn't somehow 

[admiki]

It works for me. I was in 1 m/s climb, it turned on and corrected 

[AeriaGloria]

8 hours ago, ebabil said:

No I am talking about circle button at the very bottom right. It always worked so far but now it didn't somehow 

Maybe you have some collective axis jitter? If in special options your “Alt hold collective threshold” is 1 or 2% percent, it could mean any jitter that is about 1-2% of the axis would disable barometric altitude hold. I think it goes to a max of 40%, so you can move the collective axis up to 40% without disengaging the altitude hold. 
 

Only thing else I could imagine is something might be holding down the “F” key which is bound to collective break, which when disabled with the F key turns off barometric altitude hold 

[Bananabrai]

On 9/23/2022 at 9:27 PM, AeriaGloria said:

These are my special settings. This way with MicroSwitch in “automatic off” it defaults to heading hold and I have complete manual control of Yaw AP mode. I use the MicroSwitch/Y key bound to a switch to keep them pressed the entire flight so it stays in dampening mode. Since controls don’t sync with cockpit until you move them, I flip the switch from off to back on to make sure the Yaw AP is in dampening mode and not heading hold. 
 

The microswitches are in the pedals, so in flight they are constantly pressed whenever feet are on pedals. You can read my updated yaw autopilot guide for more detailed info, I just updated it to comply with newest update https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m_BGfhSZkQB2WToh3CTRbdIFqYuPtMFc/view?usp=drivesdk

If instead I want to use the Microswitch Button option, I think I should set "Pedals Microswitch Button (Y)"  instead of "Do not trim" for the Pedals Trimmer Button, correct?

How does your setting behave?

Up until now I was not using YAW AP since the release of the Hind, due to the funky behaviour, but I want to start using it.

[admiki]

1 hour ago, Bananabrai said:

If instead I want to use the Microswitch Button option, I think I should set "Pedals Microswitch Button (Y)"  instead of "Do not trim" for the Pedals Trimmer Button, correct?

How does your setting behave?

Up until now I was not using YAW AP since the release of the Hind, due to the funky behaviour, but I want to start using it.

Microswitch control yaw AP modes.

As for pedal trim, it depends on what pedals you have. Both AG and I have MFG pedals with dampers which does not return to center.

If you use Y button for pedals trim, how your pedals will behave is dependant on what trim mode you have selected. If it's center trim mode, your pedals will stop working until you return physical pedals to center.

[AeriaGloria]

10 hours ago, Bananabrai said:

If instead I want to use the Microswitch Button option, I think I should set "Pedals Microswitch Button (Y)"  instead of "Do not trim" for the Pedals Trimmer Button, correct?

How does your setting behave?

Up until now I was not using YAW AP since the release of the Hind, due to the funky behaviour, but I want to start using it.

You’re talking about pedal trim setting. Do you want pedal trim? If you want pedal trim, do you want your pedals trimmed after every single time you release the “MicroSwitch” button? 
 

MicroSwitch always works no matter setting. My preferred settings are in my guide.  But you would only want MicroSwitch as pedal trim if you want to trim pedals every time you release it. 
 

It depends what you want, what are you trying to achieve. If you just want Yaw AP to smooth out your flight then set MicroSwitch logic to automatic off and set MicroSwitch to a switch that stays on. If you want to trim pedals, you can choose to use cyclic trim button or MicroSwitch. I run no pedal trim becuase I don’t like trimming my pedals

Edited October 15, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Bananabrai]

10 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

You’re talking about pedal trim setting. Do you want pedal trim? If you want pedal trim, do you want your pedals trimmed after every single time you release the “MicroSwitch” button? 
 

MicroSwitch always works no matter setting. My preferred settings are in my guide.  But you would only want MicroSwitch as pedal trim if you want to trim pedals every time you release it. 
 

It depends what you want, what are you trying to achieve. If you just want Yaw AP to smooth out your flight then set MicroSwitch logic to automatic off and set MicroSwitch to a switch that stays on. If you want to trim pedals, you can choose to use cyclic trim button or MicroSwitch. I run no pedal trim becuase I don’t like trimming my pedals

 

Ok, then I need to ask another question to fully understand, I am still a bit lost.

Why would I want to have the pedals not trimed or trimmed?
Out of the blue I would say trimmed for me, as I have standart MFGs without damper and I dont detach the spring when I fly helo.
I could try to get rid of the spring liek Hiob does, then I guess I could use it without trim.
What exaclty does the Y setting then do (microswtich) for the pedals trimmer button?

Up to now I was flying with YAW AP off and Pedal trimmer (T)

[bingbean]

2 hours ago, Bananabrai said:

Ok, then I need to ask another question to fully understand, I am still a bit lost.

Why would I want to have the pedals not trimed or trimmed?
Out of the blue I would say trimmed for me, as I have standart MFGs without damper and I dont detach the spring when I fly helo.
I could try to get rid of the spring liek Hiob does, then I guess I could use it without trim.
What exaclty does the Y setting then do (microswtich) for the pedals trimmer button?

Up to now I was flying with YAW AP off and Pedal trimmer (T)

The isue of AP heading mode and his full 100% autority is that your phisical rudder (real pedals) and logical rudder (in game pedals) are not same at same position after AP set new trim pedals position. So you can go in to situation when you will have your phisical pedals  100% to the right but in game pedals will be only 70% to the right, however to stop helicopter to spin left you need 80+% right logical rudder input. To prevent this situation you need often manually TRIM pedals or not use TRIM and don't allow AP use TRIM at all.

If you have spring centered pedals, and you want to use YAW AP chanel then you have two option.

a). microswich logic>  Disable by return to Neutral and Pedal TRIM button Y

In this set up, microswich will be automatically activated , when you physicals pedals will be out of center position and AP will be in damper mode. When your pedals will be in center position , microswitch will be inactive and AP will be in heading hold mode. When AP in heading hold mode change TRIM of pedals , you can manually retrim pedals by Y buttons. 

After i tried several different options and even make my own Freepie script, i find out this in game set up works best for me now.

b). microswich logic>  Automatic MicroSwitch Off and Pedal Trimmer Off

In this case you will set up microSwitch for toggle switch on your HOTAS if you have one and keep it in active position all the time, so AP YAW will be only in damper mode. 

So AP will not have full 100% authority and don't change TRIM position of pedals.

You can try another combination , but for now prevent to use Micro Switch Logic: Enable/Disable by absence/presence of pedal movement, because this one is broken and doesn't work as intended. 

Read the AeriaGlorie  AP manual. There is pretty nice discribe how it works in real live and how works diferent option what we have in game.

 

[Bananabrai]

20 hours ago, bingbean said:

The isue of AP heading mode and his full 100% autority is that your phisical rudder (real pedals) and logical rudder (in game pedals) are not same at same position after AP set new trim pedals position. So you can go in to situation when you will have your phisical pedals  100% to the right but in game pedals will be only 70% to the right, however to stop helicopter to spin left you need 80+% right logical rudder input. To prevent this situation you need often manually TRIM pedals or not use TRIM and don't allow AP use TRIM at all.

If you have spring centered pedals, and you want to use YAW AP chanel then you have two option.

a). microswich logic>  Disable by return to Neutral and Pedal TRIM button Y

In this set up, microswich will be automatically activated , when you physicals pedals will be out of center position and AP will be in damper mode. When your pedals will be in center position , microswitch will be inactive and AP will be in heading hold mode. When AP in heading hold mode change TRIM of pedals , you can manually retrim pedals by Y buttons. 

After i tried several different options and even make my own Freepie script, i find out this in game set up works best for me now.

b). microswich logic>  Automatic MicroSwitch Off and Pedal Trimmer Off

In this case you will set up microSwitch for toggle switch on your HOTAS if you have one and keep it in active position all the time, so AP YAW will be only in damper mode. 

So AP will not have full 100% authority and don't change TRIM position of pedals.

You can try another combination , but for now prevent to use Micro Switch Logic: Enable/Disable by absence/presence of pedal movement, because this one is broken and doesn't work as intended. 

Read the AeriaGlorie  AP manual. There is pretty nice discribe how it works in real live and how works diferent option what we have in game.

 

Thanks for the input.

I did some testing in the mean while, I think I found my setting. I have a Virpil T-50CM throttle, revision 2 or 3 now (not CM2/3), the old large one but with that xbox joystick TDC and the pinky on the left throttle and I use that now as the microswitch.
So I have it automatic off and the pedals not trimmed and I take off the spring as @Hiobdoes, failry quick with the MFG.

I just have to remeber at start up to put that mircoswitch to "on" (feet on pedals), so that exaclty what you describe does not happen (YAW AP moves pedals in game while MFG pedals stay in the middle or whereever they are)

So I also understand the logic now.

Thanks for the help.

[River]

On 9/26/2022 at 12:18 PM, admiki said:

@II.JG1_Vonrd Instant trim is for FFB sticks only. It will double your input every time you press FTR. Use "joystick with no springs and FFB" for stick, pedal trim is no good option, but since you don't have springs, disable pedal trim completely.

Watch yaw AP window. If it's in heading hold, spindle will be all the way towards your original heading if you start to turn. In dampening mode it will stay in centre.

If you don't have physical switch that stays in place, no.

 

Instant trim is not for FFB sticks only and it doesn't "double" your input. You have to bring the stick back to centre pretty quick, if you miss those 0,4 seconds or so, you sure get some extra momentum because your stick is still pointed in that direction you trimmed. 

Central position trim option is the same except you decide how fast you return the stick back to center after trimming. You simply can't give another input as long as the stick hasn't been moved back to center. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by River