DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[WarthogOsl]

2 hours ago, Machalot said:

Maybe more to your point, a heavier missile needs to pull more angle of attack to generate a certain number of Gs, so it has more induced drag for any given maneuver. 

Indeed, that was my point.  In non-ballistic flight (like a short range ACM shot or when maneuvering), the missile needs to maintain a certain AOA to stay on its desired course, for example.  Just like with an airplane, less weight means less AOA required to supply the lift to maintain a given course, which means less induced drag.

Edited September 21, 2022 by WarthogOsl

[Lurker]

13 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

My point here is very simple though:  If you're going to make the accusation, do the work.

 

Hardly an accusation, I thought I was pretty clear on that. Thanks for the book recommendation though I will be taking a look. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Lurker

[Zaphael]

20 hours ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Towards the end of the AIM-54's service life, the Navy had their Tomcat crews live-fire a crapload of those, as I assume this was the easiest method to clean out the inventory. I bet the Navy collected tons of data in the process. The question is: who's privy to that data. I somehow doubt that'll include the DCS crowd, at least for now.

Edit: one would assume they tested the Phoenix in all kinds of scenarios, including low, mid and high altitude shots. "Puck" Howe said in a recent interview that it turned out their tactics charts were too "pessimistic".

 

 

@IronMike 

Would there be changes to the missile active distance given new information on when they go active? If this aircrew interview is correct, the missile active distance is about halfRange+Miles. Likely the shot goes active way further than what we have now, which could reduce current TWS support time.

Or would this be something that is still beyond what can be done in DCS?

[KlarSnow]

24 minutes ago, Zaphael said:

@IronMike 

Would there be changes to the missile active distance given new information on when they go active? If this aircrew interview is correct, the missile active distance is about halfRange+Miles. Likely the shot goes active way further than what we have now, which could reduce current TWS support time.

Or would this be something that is still beyond what can be done in DCS?

He is talking about the range from the shooter when the missile goes active, not the range from the missile to the target.

IF you shoot at 30 nautical miles, using his rule of thumb, when the target is at 20 nautical miles from you, you have an active missile and can leave it. This roughly holds true in DCS btw. If you shoot a phoenix at 60 miles, when the target is ~around~ 35-40 miles from you, your missile should be active.

The one caveat is this only really holds true IF YOU CRANK, if you do not its roughly 1/3 the shot range plus seeker distance

This rule of thumb holds roughly true for the AIM-120 in DCS as well. Its just a rough rule of thumb for how quickly the missile will close the distance from you to the target and get active.

Here. 32-33 miles from me at active range on a 60 NM shot with a crank. Not a particularly good shot or crank either, barely supersonic at launch, didnt slow down much after the shot, just stayed at .9 mach. I'm at 30,000 feet. Target is going .9 mach at 30,000 feet. Well within the margin of error for a live rule of thumb wag at the missile being active or not.

Edited September 22, 2022 by KlarSnow

[Meteorlover]

On 9/21/2022 at 5:25 AM, IronMike said:

I respect your opinion, I do, but I also have to disagree, and I think that you will likely find that many folks will disagree with you regarding its usefulness. It has its place online as much as offline, as much as in air to air as in air to ground, pitted agains its contemporary cannon fodder, or a much more modern and advanced challenge - it is, in the end, what you make of it. So, if for you it has a seemingly narrow purpose, to best eagles, vipers and hornets day in day out online, all the time, with a nigh 100% success rate, then yes, I guess one could argue that it is useless. But the idea to make it purposefully unrealistic to give it a place - in what exactly? - is not something that is in any way feasible, or acceptable, when doing realistic simulations. Thank you for your kind understanding.

 

After the last patch, I saw the missile go on a long journey around 360 degrees when it was lost lock
This is happening 100 percent
Are you aware of this problem?
If you need a video, I can submit it

[IronMike]

1 minute ago, Meteorlover said:

After the last patch, I saw the missile go on a long journey around 360 degrees when it was lost lock
This is happening 100 percent
Are you aware of this problem?
If you need a video, I can submit it

We're aware, thank you!

This is a general DCS missile guidance issue though, not phoenix specific.

[Meteorlover]

6 minutes ago, IronMike said:

We're aware, thank you!

This is a general DCS missile guidance issue though, not phoenix specific.

All right. I hope it's a simple problem.
this patch, the nozzle exit area of SD-10 has been modified, so will the nozzle exit area of all missiles of DCS be modified?
Is this patch part of the missile's transition to a new schema?

[Timo Niemelä]

On 9/21/2022 at 2:41 PM, Lurker said:

Are there any tests, real world Phoenix tests down low? As in below 30,000 feet or lower?

Here's one. From a book by Mike Spick (Modern fighting aircraft F-14) This is the AIM-54A.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Timo Niemelä

[WarthogOsl]

Was there a change to the guidance or loft profile in the most recent patch (from Weds...I'm not referring to the previous patch that reduced the Mk 60's impulse)?  I've noticed my Phoenix's (mostly 54C Mk 60's) are only getting to around 60k ft, whereas previously they'd go up over 70k ft.

Edited September 24, 2022 by WarthogOsl

[Meteorlover]

3 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

Was there a change to the guidance or loft profile in the most recent patch (from Weds...I'm not referring to the previous patch that reduced the Mk 60's impulse)?  I've noticed my Phoenix's (mostly 54C Mk 60's) are only getting to around 60k ft, whereas previously they'd go up over 70k ft.

 

Lower loft angle with booster nerf patch

Edited September 24, 2022 by Meteorlover

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

Was there a change to the guidance or loft profile in the most recent patch (from Weds...I'm not referring to the previous patch that reduced the Mk 60's impulse)?  I've noticed my Phoenix's (mostly 54C Mk 60's) are only getting to around 60k ft, whereas previously they'd go up over 70k ft.

 

We did not change anything. Maybe ED adjusted missile lofting, but not to my knowledge.

[Spurts]

6 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

Was there a change to the guidance or loft profile in the most recent patch (from Weds...I'm not referring to the previous patch that reduced the Mk 60's impulse)?  I've noticed my Phoenix's (mostly 54C Mk 60's) are only getting to around 60k ft, whereas previously they'd go up over 70k ft.

 

from what parameters? I had a CMk60 get to 94,000ft launching from 46,600ft @ 1.58M in the F-14A on a target 93nm away flying towards me at 40,000ft @ 1.85M (Tu-22) TWS-A Jester RIO

[WarthogOsl]

10 hours ago, Spurts said:

from what parameters? I had a CMk60 get to 94,000ft launching from 46,600ft @ 1.58M in the F-14A on a target 93nm away flying towards me at 40,000ft @ 1.85M (Tu-22) TWS-A Jester RIO

I'm usually firing from 35 to 40,000 ft at around Mach 0.9. Hot targets usually 60 to 70 mi away.  I'm very consistent with this profile, so I can go back and look at tac views from before Wednesday and compare them with how they are performing now. Here's a recent launch from around 38k and around Mach .9.

Tacview-post-patch-loft.zip.acmi

Edited September 24, 2022 by WarthogOsl

[IronMike]

12 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

I'm usually firing from 35 to 40,000 ft at around Mach 0.9. Hot targets usually 60 to 70 mi away.  I'm very consistent with this profile, so I can go back and look at tac views from before Wednesday and compare them with how they are performing now. Here's a recent launch from around 38k and around Mach .9.

Tacview-post-patch-loft.zip.acmi 266.42 kB · 1 download

 

That looks pretty normal for a 40 nm launch. 

[WarthogOsl]

On 9/25/2022 at 2:39 AM, IronMike said:

That looks pretty normal for a 40 nm launch. 

Hmmm...I feel like something happened on the last Wednesday patch, either with the AI or the guidance, that has severely hampered TWS/long range shots (60-70 miles).  Since the motor update patch, my Pk was around 50% for those shots vs AI...not great, but not terrible either.  However, since the last patch last week, I have fired upwards of 40 missiles (A's and C's) in TWS from ~60 miles, and I've got maybe 3 hits.  The missiles are getting to the targets, but they seem to get confused by even minimal maneuvers by easy level AI and I've seen near miss after near miss.  Is anyone else experiencing this? 

FWIW, active/ACM-cover up shots at short range seem to be working fine.

[plasma1945]

and heres another video @IronMike I like making flanker videos not Phoenix ones.. despite all the views lol -- but the missiles are going backwards now. it looks like the control surfaces get jammed. same thing is happening on the AIM120 as well.. it does crazy 180s and 360s since the update last week .. pretty please roll it back to Pre September 2nd.. (pretty please)  

 

 

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, plasma1945 said:

and heres another video @IronMike I like making flanker videos not Phoenix ones.. despite all the views lol -- but the missiles are going backwards now. it looks like the control surfaces get jammed. same thing is happening on the AIM120 as well.. it does crazy 180s and 360s since the update last week .. pretty please roll it back to Pre September 2nd.. (pretty please)  

 

 

That is a DCS issue, there is nothing we can revert.

Tactical ping for @BIGNEWY and @NineLine - is this known?

[BIGNEWY]

19 minutes ago, IronMike said:

That is a DCS issue, there is nothing we can revert.

Tactical ping for @BIGNEWY and @NineLine - is this known?

I will check with the team in the morning,

if possible we need track replay example showing it happen, 

Thanks

[IronMike]

5 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

I will check with the team in the morning,

if possible we need track replay example showing it happen, 

Thanks

Thanks!

[NineLine]

We need tracks and modes they are firing in for sure. We cannot go off the video alone for sure. We need a proper bug report please and thank you.

[WarthogOsl]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

We need tracks and modes they are firing in for sure. We cannot go off the video alone for sure. We need a proper bug report please and thank you.

So, I'm not sure how much this on it's own will help.  Taken in isolation, it seems like the kind of miss you'd expect every now and then (talking of my first shot against the MiG-21).  The problem is that it now seems to be happening almost any time a missile gets close to an intercept in a TWS shot.

Tacview-20220924-175444-DCS-Through_The_Inferno_MI_v1.1.4.zip.acmi

[Callsign JoNay]

P-STT is a problematic mode right now, for sure. Anything active off the rail, or anything that loses TWS support early after weapon release has a good chance of putting the Phoenix into roller coaster mode.

[IronMike]

16 minutes ago, WarthogOsl said:

So, I'm not sure how much this on it's own will help.  Taken in isolation, it seems like the kind of miss you'd expect every now and then (talking of my first shot against the MiG-21).  The problem is that it now seems to be happening almost any time a missile gets close to an intercept in a TWS shot.

Tacview-20220924-175444-DCS-Through_The_Inferno_MI_v1.1.4.zip.acmi 4.87 MB · 0 downloads

We need tracks only, tacviews are unfortunately useless (beyond initially visualizing an issue), but thank you for sharing nonetheless.

With tracks we mean specifically a .trk file.

[WarthogOsl]

1 minute ago, Callsign JoNay said:

P-STT is a problematic mode right now, for sure. Anything active off the rail, or anything that loses TWS support early after weapon release has a good chance of putting the Phoenix into roller coaster mode.

All the P-STT shots I've taken in the last few days have guided very well.  But I did see a couple TWS shots where apparently the track was dropped, and the missile did a 90 degree turn toward nothing in particular.

[Brody]

3 back to back clean trk files showing the issue. PDSTT and snip via exceed gimbal right after launch. always left hand turn with the missile

Aim54OrbitBug1.trk Aim54OrbitBug2.trk Aim54OrbitBug3.trk

Edited September 27, 2022 by BrodyZ_ch
added info