DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[skywalker22]

34 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

Now, one question: what do you have as your "AA Missile Attack Range" setting? 

Launch by target threat estimate

It seems to be the same as Max range launch, at least for fighter jets.

I have to show you this, which is an amazing track I just did against 3 Ace AI  but I forgot to save the track, god damn

 

Tacview-20221101-175708-DCS.zip.acmi

[The_Tau]

15 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Launch by target threat estimate

It seems to be the same as Max range launch, at least for fighter jets.

I have to show you this, which is an amazing track I just did against 3 Ace AI  but I forgot to save the track, god damn

 

Tacview-20221101-175708-DCS.zip.acmi 1.46 MB · 2 downloads

I think you should give them awacs for datalink, it seem they lost you there after you killed 1st guy

and ehh that goddamn missile loft when notched.... so annoying

Edited November 2, 2022 by The_Tau

[skywalker22]

9 minutes ago, The_Tau said:

I think you should give them awacs for datalink, it seem they lost you there after you killed 1st guy

and ehh that goddamn missile loft when notched.... so annoying

 

Does AI uses AWACS, I mean is it helpful for them?

[The_Tau]

7 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

Does AI uses AWACS, I mean is it helpful for them?

Yes, their SA is much better, I  bet they would not lose you and will continue to push you instead of flying straight, but make also sure they are on same radio frequency, not sure if that helps but thats what i always do

Edited November 2, 2022 by The_Tau

[Karon]

You can easily disappear from the AI's sensor if they are not supported by an AWACS.

[skywalker22]

6 hours ago, The_Tau said:

Yes, their SA is much better, I  bet they would not lose you and will continue to push you instead of flying straight, but make also sure they are on same radio frequency, not sure if that helps but thats what i always do

 

1st try today, AI with their awacs, I think they had a bit better SA, but still, how they defend its a total crap, they just do some spirals, and trying to fake notch.

 

Tacview-20221102-163516-DCS-a2a_persian_bvr_3x_f14.zip.acmi

[The_Tau]

49 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

1st try today, AI with their awacs, I think they had a bit better SA, but still, how they defend its a total crap, they just do some spirals, and trying to fake notch.

 

Tacview-20221102-163516-DCS-a2a_persian_bvr_3x_f14.zip.acmi 1.01 MB · 0 downloads

what can i say, try changing their starting alt, speed (currently they fire from way too low and slow for effective 54 shots, i would say 35k and mach 1.2) and  try  setting firing range for max range  for better challenge. Also they still fly straight like they lose you after you splash 1st one. Did you set up CAP order for them?

[skywalker22]

13 minutes ago, The_Tau said:

what can i say, try changing their starting alt, speed (currently they fire from way too low and slow for effective 54 shots, i would say 35k and mach 1.2) and  try  setting firing range for max range  for better challenge. Also they still fly straight like they lose you after you splash 1st one. Did you set up CAP order for them?

Can you make a simple & challenging mission for me?

Will listen to u and fix that. CAP is what they are atm.

[lunaticfringe]

3 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

Can you make a simple & challenging mission for me?

Will listen to u and fix that. CAP is what they are atm.

Just as a quick example as I was testing to see if there was any opposing AI response to additional active missiles.  The AI F-14 wingman went 4 for 4 at 40+ miles against four defending MiG-29s.

Something to keep in mind is that the same advantages the AI have in defending against shots are also held by you as a player- the wide notch, etc.  While you don't have the perfect SA they do (and are less apt to make margin percentile plays on defense that can catch them out), the early defensive move is going to catch any missile right out.  So they can shoot in a good, valid, basket and you can still beat them, just like you should be able to do against any round if you're paying attention.

Tacview-20221027-235220-DCS-2 v 4 Mig-29s Long Range New BVR Test.zip.acmi

[skywalker22]

I put them at you said, and now its quite a bit different story  Will have to try harder to shot 3 down.

[captain_dalan]

12 hours ago, Karon said:

You can easily disappear from the AI's sensor if they are not supported by an AWACS.

They don't seem to have an issue reacquiring though. My test scenarios don't involve AWACS presence at all. Yet, any bandit i ever fired a missile at (veteran or ace), even when belly facing, not only performs perfect 90 degree notch, or heck, even going 180 cold, proceed to immediately point their nose at me the second they defeat the missile. 

[Karon]

6 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

They don't seem to have an issue reacquiring though. My test scenarios don't involve AWACS presence at all. Yet, any bandit i ever fired a missile at (veteran or ace), even when belly facing, not only performs perfect 90 degree notch, or heck, even going 180 cold, proceed to immediately point their nose at me the second they defeat the missile. 

The problem of the AI is as old as the game itself (older if you include LOMAC et similia). Unfortunately, rather than using manoeuvres and tactics, it just charges straight, at best it places you on CC, and its only defence is perfect notch, and sometimes it turns cold.

What I did for my campaign (Iran '87) was randomising reaction to threat, skill level (to simulate different hardware and capabilities - never Ace though, it's just silly) and numbers (to simulate poor intelligence). It worked very well, and you never knew what was coming, and good they'd fight. Also, no DL, no AWACS, limited EW for the Iranians, so SA was all radar work and comms. This made any engagement chaotic and relied a lot on the level of the participants, and allowed mid-range AIM-54 STT shots to connect (I limited the 54s a lot, btw), without seeing the usual UFO manoeuvres from the AI.
Unfortunately, as long as the AI in DCS does not improve, providing a more realistic scenario, it is up to the mission designer.

[Callsign JoNay]

On 10/30/2022 at 5:02 PM, Callsign JoNay said:

I disagree, I think it's pretty new. Here's a video I made comparing a June 2022 tacview to a Tacview I recorded today in 2.8.

I think this, more than any kind of nerf to the kinetics/loft of the missile, is the biggest factor hampering it's current PK%.

 

 

I posted this to the Weapon Bugs thread if anyone wants to upvote or add a comment. Maybe we can get the ball rolling if more Phoenix users share some data about this sudden susceptibility to notching that was not mentioned in any patch notes. I'd hate to see this slip between the cracks and not get some attention.

 

[DSplayer]

7 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

 

I posted this to the Weapon Bugs thread if anyone wants to upvote or add a comment. Maybe we can get the ball rolling if more Phoenix users share some data about this sudden susceptibility to notching that was not mentioned in any patch notes. I'd hate to see this slip between the cracks and not get some attention.

 

Tbh I've only seen this behavior with AIM-54s and I had thought this was solved months ago and I guess reappeared now. Do you have tracks for this btw? I would like to recreate the test but change some values on my end to see if I can make the missile not move upwards after losing track.

[Callsign JoNay]

21 minutes ago, DSplayer said:

Tbh I've only seen this behavior with AIM-54s and I had thought this was solved months ago and I guess reappeared now. Do you have tracks for this btw? I would like to recreate the test but change some values on my end to see if I can make the missile not move upwards after losing track.

I don't save tracks, but I can attach the miz I've been using if that helps. It's pretty basic. Just a 1v1 starting from 100nm or so. I open in the ME, edit the bandit and it's advanced waypoint actions how I see fit, then usually fly the mission without saving.

DACT BVR F-14B VS....miz

[SmeagleGoneWild]

On 11/3/2022 at 4:23 PM, Callsign JoNay said:

 

I posted this to the Weapon Bugs thread if anyone wants to upvote or add a comment. Maybe we can get the ball rolling if more Phoenix users share some data about this sudden susceptibility to notching that was not mentioned in any patch notes. I'd hate to see this slip between the cracks and not get some attention.

 

Wouldn’t this be an issue with the AWG9? Just posing a question, not a SME.

[IronMike]

58 minutes ago, SmeagleGoneWild said:

Wouldn’t this be an issue with the AWG9? Just posing a question, not a SME.

It should (or rather shouldnt with STT), alas in DCS the AI notches missiles, not the supporting radar unfortunately.

[SmeagleGoneWild]

39 minutes ago, IronMike said:

It should (or rather shouldnt with STT), alas in DCS the AI notches missiles, not the supporting radar unfortunately.

Ahh okay, one day we'll get there, development develops lol

I have had decent luck after 2.8, not 100% PK but what missile IRL is, right?, i'd say out of the 20 or so i shot, only 3 or 4 missed on maneuvering targets. I'd say its moving in the right direction or is good as is without data to back my trials.

[Callsign JoNay]

2 hours ago, SmeagleGoneWild said:

Wouldn’t this be an issue with the AWG9? Just posing a question, not a SME.

No. My video is showing after pitbull. 

[SmeagleGoneWild]

2 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

No. My video is showing after pitbull. 

Ahh okay! Thank you for the reply  when I first got the tomcat at the beginning of the year, the 54’s were just dynamite for me against AI. I was hitting 60-70nm away and it didn’t matter if they moved, but in my head I was curious if that was just OP. Listened to a podcast where they talked about it and from my understanding it was just okay, definitely not as hated as the sparrow lol. 

[No_Brain]

I have a question, whenever i fly as RIO with a Pilot our Phoenix Missiles loft like crazy. This way it looses all its energy and is therefore useless, even if we and the enemy are at
20k ft and only about 20-30 nm apart. I did forget to record tacview, i can post it within next week as i dont have much time right now. But maybe i am just forgetting something so
you might be able to help me. Missile speed gate was set to Nose QTR and we launched in TWS-Mode.
 

[The_Tau]

3 hours ago, No_Brain said:

I have a question, whenever i fly as RIO with a Pilot our Phoenix Missiles loft like crazy. This way it looses all its energy and is therefore useless, even if we and the enemy are at
20k ft and only about 20-30 nm apart. I did forget to record tacview, i can post it within next week as i dont have much time right now. But maybe i am just forgetting something so
you might be able to help me. Missile speed gate was set to Nose QTR and we launched in TWS-Mode.
 

20kft launch is kinda too low, try at least 30k, preferably above 40k . 

20-30nm is a bit of 54 deadzone, too close for TWS, too long for PD STT. Shoot at 40-50 nm with TWS or less then 20nm with PD STT.

AFAIK Missile speed gate is non functional, no point in setting it

[captain_dalan]

Still. the Persian Gulf BVR mission starts with both blues and reds at 20000ft and 50 miles away. I have shot many a missile on this one and never has one ended up 80000ft high. Something else must be afoot here. 

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Still. the Persian Gulf BVR mission starts with both blues and reds at 20000ft and 50 miles away. I have shot many a missile on this one and never has one ended up 80000ft high. Something else must be afoot here. 

Could be manual overlofting.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

7 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Still. the Persian Gulf BVR mission starts with both blues and reds at 20000ft and 50 miles away. I have shot many a missile on this one and never has one ended up 80000ft high. Something else must be afoot here. 

I'm pretty sure I remember IronMike commenting on how their IA missions are set up in a particular way to present challenges that are not that obvious at first, and require more from the player than simply point-and-shoot.
For that particular one: maintain an angle-off (I think that's the correct term) to help the radar with distinguishing between both MiG-29s (they are very close together on purpose), and climb to higher altitude immediately after jumping in.

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
double post for some reason