How do you practice A/A Refueling?

[Tim2542]

So Im hitting basket fairly well now (prolly 25 hrs practice!), but the basket breaks off almost instantly. I get a "Contact". then  it breaks off and he asks if I want to return? Whats up wit dat?

I am set to unlimited fuel, maybe its full and wont ship any to me?

Thanks+

[rob10]

35 minutes ago, Tim2542 said:

So Im hitting basket fairly well now (prolly 25 hrs practice!), but the basket breaks off almost instantly. I get a "Contact". then  it breaks off and he asks if I want to return? Whats up wit dat?

I am set to unlimited fuel, maybe its full and wont ship any to me?

Thanks+

I've never tried it with unlimited fuel, but that's almost for sure the issue (or at least part of).  With unlimited fuel you're constantly at a full fuel state so they would be unable to give you any.  That's definitely part A of your problem.  You'll discover if you're getting out of proper position causing disconnect from the basket when you are able to take fuel on which could also be what's happening.

[Tim2542]

Thanks Rob, I’ll try deselecting u/l fuel (when I can connect without burning 8,000 lbs!) and see how it goes. 
For me, the breakthrough came after I learned to focus on the TVV and let my peripheral vision detect speed adjustment needs. 
Getting on the boat now too most times. Progress! 

[SickSidewinder9]

You also want to take up some slack in the hose.  Don't just stop once you make contact at the end of the hose.

[jaylw314]

On 1/16/2023 at 9:19 PM, Tim2542 said:

Thanks Rob, I’ll try deselecting u/l fuel (when I can connect without burning 8,000 lbs!) and see how it goes. 
For me, the breakthrough came after I learned to focus on the TVV and let my peripheral vision detect speed adjustment needs. 
Getting on the boat now too most times. Progress! 

I don't think focusing on the velocity vector is a good idea.  It's just not sensitive enough to show small changes in vertical motion during formation flight.  Even a couple pixels up or down is a significant vertical speed.

It's kind of like how in primary pilot training students tend to look at the artificial horizon to control their pitch and roll.  It's just not precise enough to adjust attitude by a couple degrees.  They should be looking at the REAL horizon, which is much more precise.

[Exorcet]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:08 PM, jaylw314 said:

So I actually suggest people start out with large, maybe even exaggerated movements of the stick and throttle.  As long as they're opposed by the opposite movements, it allows some station-keeping for beginners.  That allows them to get started, and then the focus becomes reducing the amplitude and increasing the frequency of those movements.

I actually found that the opposite worked for me. If I get the tanker's speed via radar or something, I'll try to match it and I don't find it difficult to get very close. Once I'm at tanker speed I'll note my fuel flow, and this gives me an accurate indication of where my throttle should be.

I still have to make adjustments, especially as fuel weight increases, but having a reference fuel flow for throttle helps immensely with keeping pace. Without it I've found it's a lot easier to over correct on the throttle and then completely lose where you want it to be.

[jaylw314]

12 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

I actually found that the opposite worked for me. If I get the tanker's speed via radar or something, I'll try to match it and I don't find it difficult to get very close. Once I'm at tanker speed I'll note my fuel flow, and this gives me an accurate indication of where my throttle should be.

I still have to make adjustments, especially as fuel weight increases, but having a reference fuel flow for throttle helps immensely with keeping pace. Without it I've found it's a lot easier to over correct on the throttle and then completely lose where you want it to be.

In thinking about how people learn, that does work, but it's not very robust.  Think of it this way--you NEED to learn how to completely lose where you want to be and how to recover.  If the tanker starts turning, for example, you quickly have to shift your pitch, bank and power to aggressively return to position.  Keeping sight of the BIG references helps you do that, but keeping the numbers and throttle/stick position don't.

[Exorcet]

6 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Keeping sight of the BIG references helps you do that, but keeping the numbers and throttle/stick position don't.

It's not a case of choosing one or the other though. While I do take note of fuel flow, I don't just stare at the engine panel in the cockpit. In a way you could consider the FF reference as a step in recovering if the throttle ends up getting out of control. At the same time though, what works for one person may not work for another.

[Predator-78]

 

[pokeraccio]

13 hours ago, Predator-78 said:

remember the first AAR checklist item: RADAR STBY/SILENT 

remember the first AAR checklist item: RADAR STBY/SILENT 

Edited April 3, 2023 by pokeraccio

[bfr]

Practice, practice, practice. If you're feeling a little tense/demoralised about it then usually smoking the tanker in rage helps a little.

[bonesvf103]

It took me forever to be able to tank with the basket.  But one day I was just like, you know?  I'm going to sit and do this until I get it right.  So I finally am able to--I'm not the best at it, but I can stay in resonably long enough to get fuel, or if I break away, I can get back in and finish.  I'm getting better at getting in and staying in until fully fueled, I'm like 95% there.

The funny thing is I had read all these tips and watched all these videos--even wiggled my toes per Rosencrantz to get it right.  But the only things that worked were to get a good feel and sight picture, make teeny tiny adjustments in throttle and stick (I actually never use the rudders), and to focus on the "black ball"--the rear face of the fuel pod and zone out on it.  Once my glance or even my mind go to the basket, I screw up because I track the basket, even unconsciously.  But if you focus on that ball, even when the tanker turns, you can stay in.

People tell you put the fuel pod here or there, use the HUD or such and such symbology as a reference point, etc.  But I am of the opinion that that is all subjective, especially when using a head tracker and I'm sure VR.  Your real life posture, height, distance from the screen, etc all affect that sight picture so you have to find what works for you.  Even your HOTAS setup is subjective--you may hav ea dead zone different from others--but definitely the tiny stick movements (and a counter to that movement) as well as similar throttle movements are essential, primarily for avoiding PIO.

Last, practice refueling from different basket aircraft KS-3B, KC-135MPRS, KC-130, even the IL-78.  This will get you prepared for say a low fuel state and the only aircraft available to refuel is say the KC-135 (hope it is the MPRS so it has a basket!).  If you fly the Tomcat, get proficient in refueling in that too.  Getting a feel for different aircraft help you to home in on how a refueler behaves so you can react accordingly no matter what plane you are in.

A few things I found that are important to note.  Make sure you tell the tanker ready precontact and have them say "cleared precontact."  Not only will they send the basket to you, but if you don't have them say "cleared precontact" it appears that the sim's logic for refueling doesn't kick in.  You can be in the basket and it won't ever connect.  But once they say "cleared precontact", there seems to be a window of tolerance where if your probe is within it, the basket will "snap" onto your probe, even if it's off.  Of course being dead on will work and that's the proper way.  See the video below at around 6:53 and you will see how the basket "blinks" into place.

 

Also, determining which basket when there are multiple to use can be tricky.  If by yourself, the left basket will work, but if you have a wingman, I think it defaults to the wingman gets the left backet and you get the right.  I tried for the left a few times and either it wouldn't connect or give me fuel, or I would connect and get fuel but then my AI wingman who is angling for it flies up to me and collides with me.  So keep that in mind, it will save some frustration.

I want to try getting fuel again from an IL-78.  It is freaky because there is a left basket, a right basket, and a middle basket that comes from the fuselage!  I tried connecting to that basket for fun, but again, as in the paragraph above, the left basket was the only active one.  I realized also that there are lights that actually clue you off as to which basket is active and whether fuel is flowing or not, and I think your proximity. See the video below at around 26:03 and you will see again how the basket "blinks" into place.

 

To stay proficient, I will load up a tanker IA or SP mission and just plug and chug at least once per session.

v6,

boNes

Edited April 6, 2023 by bonesvf103

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

...

People tell you put the fuel pod here or there, use the HUD or such and such symbology as a reference point, etc.  But I am of the opinion that that is all subjective, especially when using a head tracker and I'm sure VR.  Your real life posture, height, distance from the screen, etc all affect that sight picture so you have to find what works for you.  

That is true, even if in real life there is an emphasis on visual site cues and a consistent seating position for formation flying.  I recall the Blue Angels specify something crazy like 'the nose of the Sidewinder has to be directly under the 'n' in Blue Angels' or something like that.

Given the diversity of aircraft in DCS, that's probably unfeasible, and it's probably better to be primed to look for a visual a cue once you are in the right position, e.g. hit the basket, move up 6 feet, then note that the horizontal stab of the tanker touches the canopy arch and the fuel pod is at the top edge of the HUD (I'm just making those up).  If you find two cues close enough together that you can quickly scan between, you should be able to keep any position precisely.

Again, you probably do do this subconsciously, and that's kind of the goal for the process to become subconscious.  However, breaking down learning how to learn into steps might be helpful for someone else, since it's hard to learn 'subjective'  

As an aside, while VAICOM breaks script IC in multiplayer if the server has it on, calling 'Ready Precontact' using VAICOM is 1) very cool, and 2) means you don't have to take your hands off anything  

[bonesvf103]

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

As an aside, while VAICOM breaks script IC in multiplayer if the server has it on, calling 'Ready Precontact' using VAICOM is 1) very cool, and 2) means you don't have to take your hands off anything  

I do actually use VAICOM Pro when I fly so there's that, heh...

Now to see if this stuff can be applied to a boom tanker when flying the F-16 or A-10.

v6,

boNes