investigating Yaw autopilot issue

[Alborz 1-1]

After the latest patch i've noticed that the yaw autopilot channel is trying to correct my flight path like it used to before microswitch implementation. my micro switch setting is set to 'enable/disable by presence/absence of pedal movement' and it used to work just fine before the patch.

mi24 yaw autopilot.trk

Edited September 23, 2022 by Alborz 1-1

[admiki]

And it still works, you need to move pedals all the time for switches to activate.

When microswitches were implemented, auto pedal trim was removed and now ED brought it back, because that's how it works IRL. Best way to deal with that is to toggle Y bind, so yaw AP is only in damping mode, not heading hold.

[Alborz 1-1]

5 hours ago, admiki said:

And it still works, you need to move pedals all the time for switches to activate.

When microswitches were implemented, auto pedal trim was removed and now ED brought it back, because that's how it works IRL. Best way to deal with that is to toggle Y bind, so yaw AP is only in damping mode, not heading hold.

No it does not. even when applying rudder the AP is fighting with my rudder input and trying to correct it. or maybe i'm doing something wrong?

Edited September 23, 2022 by Alborz 1-1

[bingbean]

There is definitely something strange at the current state. I can't describe what is wrong , but there is not correct something.

[admiki]

4 hours ago, Alborz 1-1 said:

No it does not. even when applying rudder the AP is fighting with my rudder input and trying to correct it. or maybe i'm doing something wrong?

You are right. I did a test and even when moving pedals, AP logic is switching between heading hold and damping mode about 2-3 times per second

[Nevyn]

Yep there is something very different since the last patch, it just feels totally off, the takeoff feels completely borked, I am all over the show atm which is not the case normally, even the collective feels different.

[AeriaGloria]

On 9/22/2022 at 10:30 PM, Alborz 1-1 said:

After the latest patch i've noticed that the yaw autopilot channel is trying to correct my flight path like it used to before microswitch implementation. my micro switch setting is set to 'enable/disable by presence/absence of pedal movement' and it used to work just fine before the patch.

mi24 yaw autopilot.trk 823.53 kB · 0 downloads

 

Honestly I don’t think “disable/enable by presence if rudder movement” worked very well at all at any time. 
 

You will see when the Yaw AP is in Heading Hold and auto trims you when reaching its limit by seeing a yellow cryllic letter next to the yaw AP deflection window in the R control + enter menu. 
 

I have my MicroSwitch setting as “automatic off” and have the MicroSwitch/Y key bound to a switch. I toggle the switch before take off to make sure that the Yaw AP is in dampening mode. Then I have no issues, becuase when not in heading hold it will never auto trim you, and instead of fighting you to maintain heading will only stabilize and smooth you out. 
 

If you don’t have a way to keep the microswitches/Y key pressed like binding it to a switch, I recomend flying with Yaw AP off and only using it for straight and level flight. But as long as you can keep micro switches/Y held down it works amazing. 

On 9/23/2022 at 3:33 AM, bingbean said:

There is definitely something strange at the current state. I can't describe what is wrong , but there is not correct something.

 

On 9/23/2022 at 6:11 AM, Nevyn said:

Yep there is something very different since the last patch, it just feels totally off, the takeoff feels completely borked, I am all over the show atm which is not the case normally, even the collective feels different.

R control + enter to see the yellow cryllic letter that indicates yaw AP is in heading hold and auto trimming you. You can use the same R control display to make sure if the microswitches are pressed, when in dampening mode with micro switches pressed it should stay near center and only deflect Yaw AP to slow down changes in yaw rate

I will update my Auropot guide immediately, but for now you can still read it with the new Hesding ahold auto trimming when reaching its limits in mind, as it’s same behavior as Mi-8 Yaw AP and heading hold 

EDIT: Autopilot Guide updates to conform to latest patch, version 5.3 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-snl9-vM20Z8_e5dCul90Q63FZ0NZaYk/view?usp=drivesdk

Edited September 26, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Nevyn]

Forward flight is fine, apart from the collective but I created a curve on it and now feels as it normally does, takeoff however feels very odd. What I have noticed is that I have to use a lot of right pedal on take off , and I mean a lot, way more than I am used to, and it also feels like it wants to roll over too easily, makes me feel like a novice again. I don't normally fly with the indicators on, but I will give that a go and see, so thanks.

[Lord Vader]

Hi @Alborz 1-1

The team is analyzing tracks to see if there are any inconsistencies.

Thank you for your report.

 

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Nevyn said:

Forward flight is fine, apart from the collective but I created a curve on it and now feels as it normally does, takeoff however feels very odd. What I have noticed is that I have to use a lot of right pedal on take off , and I mean a lot, way more than I am used to, and it also feels like it wants to roll over too easily, makes me feel like a novice again. I don't normally fly with the indicators on, but I will give that a go and see, so thanks.

I feel there is less pedal authority then before, but I have made sure that all my testing is done with Yaw AP in dampening/stabilization mode and with pedal trim reset to zero.
 

So perhaps total authority is a separate issue, but when the heading hold auto trims your pedals to maintain heading beyond its 18% limit it will definitly reduce authority in the opposite direction that it trims

Edited September 23, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[christopher m]

This latest update with the 100% authority on the Heading Keeper AP had me flummoxed a little until i changed "Special Settings" from "Peddles Movement causes Micro Switches-ON"

to "Peddles Trim-OFF" and "Micro-Switches Automatic-Off" and programmed a TOGGLE SWITCH as "NORMAL-mode" on my THROTTLE (virpil) and map it to "Y" damper button

and now i'm flying with the BiG DoG's

[bingbean]

What have actually Micro-Switches does before the last update?  What was different if the micro switch was on or off? I just try to figure out why the auto Micro-Switches mode work before and don"t work now.

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, bingbean said:

What have actually Micro-Switches does before the last update?  What was different if the micro switch was on or off? I just try to figure out why the auto Micro-Switches mode work before and don"t work now.

I think before the option to toggle them on or off, the only way to simulate them was by a treshold for pedal movement, which wasn't a good solution to many people seemingly...?

[AeriaGloria]

23 minutes ago, bingbean said:

What have actually Micro-Switches does before the last update?  What was different if the micro switch was on or off? I just try to figure out why the auto Micro-Switches mode work before and don"t work now.

I linked my autopilot guide in an earlier post on this thread and it is updated with all info from latest patch. It has a specific yaw section that you can jump to. 
 

The last patch changes nothing about microswitches, when pressed the Yaw AP is in dampening mode. If released in heading hold. The only difference after the patch is that when I’m heading hold mode And reaches its limit of 18% authority, it uses the hydraulic cylinder in the pedals (that slows down your pedals), to move the pedals on their own. And thus also trimming them. As explained above you can see it happen anytime a yellow cryllic letter appears in the top right of the R control + enter menu.

So to be able to turn without having your pedals auto trimmed, you need to turn Yaw AP off, or by having micro switches held down, or change your special settings so that pedals disable heading hold whenever moved more then 9% from center (this is how it was the 8-10 months after release and how it works in Mi-8.) 

In special options you can choose a few things, and all the special options are described in my guide as well 

I always have nuetral pedal trim and notice much less right pedal authority this patch then before, but I believe that is an entirely separate issue. 
 

EDIT: Somehow Admiki manages to say everything I can with 10x fewer words

Edited September 26, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[admiki]

16 minutes ago, bingbean said:

What have actually Micro-Switches does before the last update?  What was different if the micro switch was on or off? I just try to figure out why the auto Micro-Switches mode work before and don"t work now.

They did the same thing as now. Difference is that AP did not auto trim pedals in heading hold mode, so you could just ignore AP and override it

[Hiob]

21 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

EDIT: Somehow Admiki manages to say everything I can with 10x fewer words

 

Both approaches are valuable on their own and build upon each other! 

[admiki]

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

EDIT: Somehow Admiki manages to say everything I can with 10x fewer words

I just use what you tell me and shorten it as much as possible since I can't remember it the way you tell me

[AlpineGTA]

I was having a lot of issues flying smoothly since the last update. I was fighting the trim, I think it was heading hold mode trying to return me to my previous heading every time I tried to turn. Before I'd even touched a control, I noticed on the Syria Free Flight Instant Action mission for example, the helicopter was flying along on it's own in a sort of wobbling motion. Looking down at the cyclic, it was moving in an anti-clockwise circular motion, like stirring porridge, all by itself, even though I hadn't even touched my actual joystick, which was perfectly still. I then noticed in the Special Options I had a box ticked called 'Control Helper'. I don't know why I had this ticked or what it does but after un-ticking it it flies perfectly smooth again. And after setting all the other trim control options to my liking, thanks to AeriaGloria's excellent explanations (thank you!), I'm now flying and trimming the Hind nice and smoothly again with full control.

So just a heads up to anyone who, no matter what trim options they have selected in the Special Options, might be struggling flying the Hind, it's worth checking whether you have 'Control Helper' ticked. As I said, I don't know what it does but it un-checking it seemed to work for me.

[AeriaGloria]

3 hours ago, AlpineGTA said:

I was having a lot of issues flying smoothly since the last update. I was fighting the trim, I think it was heading hold mode trying to return me to my previous heading every time I tried to turn. Before I'd even touched a control, I noticed on the Syria Free Flight Instant Action mission for example, the helicopter was flying along on it's own in a sort of wobbling motion. Looking down at the cyclic, it was moving in an anti-clockwise circular motion, like stirring porridge, all by itself, even though I hadn't even touched my actual joystick, which was perfectly still. I then noticed in the Special Options I had a box ticked called 'Control Helper'. I don't know why I had this ticked or what it does but after un-ticking it it flies perfectly smooth again. And after setting all the other trim control options to my liking, thanks to AeriaGloria's excellent explanations (thank you!), I'm now flying and trimming the Hind nice and smoothly again with full control.

So just a heads up to anyone who, no matter what trim options they have selected in the Special Options, might be struggling flying the Hind, it's worth checking whether you have 'Control Helper' ticked. As I said, I don't know what it does but it un-checking it seemed to work for me.

I believe what it’s “supposed to do” is be like an AI that helps you fly easier, so that say a new person with little flying experience can try to fly it. But I don’t think there’s any module where it actually “helps” you fly but always gets in the way. 

[bingbean]

After some investigation and testing i know describe now what is wrong.  

1. "Enable/Disable by absence/presence of pedal movement" mode in “Pedal Micro Switch Logic"  does not work es was intended. 

Instead of simulating pressing and holding the microswitch the entire time the pedals are in motion, the microswitch is pressed and released rapidly. Actually it was wrong even before update  2.7.18.30348 Open Beta. On stable version it is wrong as well , but not so noticeable , because AP doesn't have yet 100% authority there. To fix this issue , there have to be add 1 second delay or so before the microswich is released after the pedals stop to move. 

"The Disable by return to Neutral"  Pedal Micro Switch Logic mode seems to work correct.  

2. Second problem is new 100% authority of Yaw AP chanel and how the AP move the pedals and set a new trim position.  Since most players do not have pedals with force feedback, AP trimming desynchronize physical (real players pedals position or whatever he use for rudder) and logical (in game pedal position) axis value. What i know lots of people  doesn't like to much if physical and logical axis does not match, because of issue of don't have enough authority from logical axis while the physical axis is already at max position.

For example : AP move logical axis 30% to the left. My physical axis is still in the center 0% position. Now i come in to situation when i need 80% rudder input to the right. However even if i press my physical axis 100% to the right, the logical in game axis get only 70%, because i was spend already 30% of physical axis to move the logical axis to the center. So in this situations would be nice to have some automatically system what will start relatively increase logical axis, when the physical axis reache max value. The relative increase speed can be the same as i can set up in special option "sensitivity of button  controlled pedals".

So for now the AP YAW chanel work correct for people who own force feedback pedals with micro switch what is like 0,1% of all players or even less as that. So the question is, if the rest of players who just use spring centered pedals or joystick twist, can get some better solution as stop use Yaw AP chanel or use 3th party software to force pressed Y key if they don't have toggle switch on his HOTAS. 

Before some more sophisticated solution at least toggle on/off option for Pedal Micro Switch would be good start.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by bingbean

[AeriaGloria]

47 minutes ago, bingbean said:

After some investigation and testing i know describe now what is wrong.  

1. "Enable/Disable by absence/presence of pedal movement" mode in “Pedal Micro Switch Logic"  does not work es was intended. 

Instead of simulating pressing and holding the microswitch the entire time the pedals are in motion, the microswitch is pressed and released rapidly. Actually it was wrong even before update  2.7.18.30348 Open Beta. On stable version it is wrong as well , but not so noticeable , because AP doesn't have yet 100% authority there. To fix this issue , there have to be add 1 second delay or so before the microswich is released after the pedals stop to move. 

"The Disable by return to Neutral"  Pedal Micro Switch Logic mode seems to work correct.  

2. Second problem is new 100% authority of Yaw AP chanel and how the AP move the pedals and set a new trim position.  Since most players do not have pedals with force feedback, AP trimming desynchronize physical (real players pedals position or whatever he use for rudder) and logical (in game pedal position) axis value. What i know lots of people  doesn't like to much if physical and logical axis does not match, because of issue of don't have enough authority from logical axis while the physical axis is already at max position.

For example : AP move logical axis 30% to the left. My physical axis is still in the center 0% position. Now i come in to situation when i need 80% rudder input to the right. However even if i press my physical axis 100% to the right, the logical in game axis get only 70%, because i was spend already 30% of physical axis to move the logical axis to the center. So in this situations would be nice to have some automatically system what will start relatively increase logical axis, when the physical axis reache max value. The relative increase speed can be the same as i can set up in special option "sensitivity of button  controlled pedals".

So for now the AP YAW chanel work correct for people who own force feedback pedals with micro switch what is like 0,1% of all players or even less as that. So the question is, if the rest of players who just use spring centered pedals or joystick twist, can get some better solution as stop use Yaw AP chanel or use 3th party software to force pressed Y key if they don't have toggle switch on his HOTAS. 

Before some more sophisticated solution at least toggle on/off option for Pedal Micro Switch would be good start.

 

 

 

There is already a “sophisticated” solution and on/off toggle for pedal MicroSwitch, it’s the “Y” on keyboard. If you go into special settings there is an option for MicroSwitch logic called “automatic off,” that means anytime yaw AP is on its in heading hold but you have manual MicroSwitch control. I have a switch bound to “Y,” flick it back and forth before take off and have Yaw AP In dampening mode the entire flight. 
 

  The Mi-8 works the same way when Yaw AP hits it’s limit in heading hold, just the pedals move and auto trim slower so it’s harder to notice. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[bingbean]

1 minute ago, AeriaGloria said:

There is already a “sophisticated” solution, becuase there is already a on/off toggle for pedal MicroSwitch, it’s the “Y” on keyboard. If you go into special settings there is an option for MicroSwitch logic called “automatic off,” that means anytime yaw AP is on its in heading hold but you have manual MicroSwitch control. I have a switch bound to “Y,” flick it back and forth before take off and have Yaw AP In dampening mode the entire flight. 
 

  The Mi-8 works the same way when Yaw AP hits it’s limit in heading hold, just the pedals move and auto trim slower so it’s harder to notice. 

I meen toggle option as : Press first time it goes on , press second times it goes off. I don't have any switch style "button" on the HOTAS what can be in on or off position all the time. I have only buttons what need to be press and hold to have the button active. There are only few HOTAS on the market that have switches, and they are quite expensive ones. 

[AeriaGloria]

48 minutes ago, bingbean said:

I meen toggle option as : Press first time it goes on , press second times it goes off. I don't have any switch style "button" on the HOTAS what can be in on or off position all the time. I have only buttons what need to be press and hold to have the button active. There are only few HOTAS on the market that have switches, and they are quite expensive ones. 

If you download vjoy and joystick gremlin, I can probably send you a profile that turns a button into a toggle. But yes I would like it if ED made a toggle option 

[Hiob]

10 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

If you download vjoy and joystick gremlin, I can probably send you a profile that turns a button into a toggle. But yes I would like it if ED made a toggle option 

Or even better, give us two bindings. One for „on“ and one for „off“. That would give us every option.

[admiki]

10 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

If you download vjoy and joystick gremlin, I can probably send you a profile that turns a button into a toggle. But yes I would like it if ED made a toggle option 

 

21 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Or even better, give us two bindings. One for „on“ and one for „off“. That would give us every option.

DCS is already binding intensive, but this would also be a nice option. With toggle, only way to know what mode you are in, is to look at AP spindle to decipher.

 

12 hours ago, bingbean said:

To fix this issue , there have to be add 1 second delay or so before the microswich is released after the pedals stop to move. 

This won't help either. If you are doing balanced turn, you move pedals and then just hold them in place, turn will take at least few seconds more. When I am doing repeated attacks with human CPG, I keep my bank under 30 deg, so CPG can keep his sight open. This saves us time, but turn itself can take up to 20 seconds.

Problem ED is facing here is that there is a myriad of hardware options players have, it's hard to account for all of them