Minsky Posted September 24, 2022 Posted September 24, 2022 Prerequisites: current OB (2.7.18.30348), a mission with any waypoint, ATFLIR. Correct behavior (second half of the track): SCS > FLIR display HSI > "WPDSG" TDC DEPRESS Move TDC in any direction = all is fine, FLIR crosshair stays stabilized in INR mode. Questionable behavior (first half of the track): SCS > FLIR display HSI > "WPDSG" Try moving TDC in any direction TDC DEPRESS Move TDC in any direction once again = FLIR crosshair still looks like it's in INR mode, but begins to drift like in Snowplow mode. FLIR-INR-Snowplow-issue.trk 2 Dima | My DCS uploads
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted September 26, 2022 ED Team Posted September 26, 2022 Hi, I have checked with the team it is correct based on our information, if you have any public evidence it should be different please PM me thanks Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, PIMAX Crystal
Bankler Posted September 28, 2022 Posted September 28, 2022 (edited) This was also reported here: @BIGNEWY The current implementation, cannot possibly be correct. I think there's just a misunderstanding here. 1) If you are using an actual TDC mini stick when pressing the "TDC depress" command, it's not practically possible to press this button without also causing a slight amount of axis input. This small input will make the depress input malfunction (like Minsky explains in example 2). The only workaround is to add a significant deadzone to the TDC axis or (what I've done) use a completely different HOTAS button for the TDC Depress action, than the actual DCS Depress button. 2) I would be curious what documentation/information says (or even points towards) that moving the TDC when in WPSDG mode should "Have no immediate effect, but instead cause an alternative behavior to any future TDC depress input". To be honest I don't think there is any documentation indicating that, but instead, the team has just not understood the bug report and/or has not been able to reproduce it. As for the correct implementation there are two reasonable different options (I don't know which one would be correct): A) TDC axis input doesn't do anything at all (sounds like the easiest fix, and what the current implementation is TRYING to do, but it's bugged). B) TDC axis input causes an "automatic" TDC depress input, going into ground stabilization and enabling slewing (convenient, logical, but just speculation) @Mo410 Do you have any additional input? Edited October 3, 2022 by Bankler 5 Bankler's CASE 1 Recovery Trainer
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted September 28, 2022 ED Team Posted September 28, 2022 Hi @Bankler can you reassign the depress to something else and retry ( so it is not on the mini stick ) I want to know if you notice a difference. The way it is now is based on the best evidence we have, to change it I would need some public evidence to show to the team. thanks Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, PIMAX Crystal
Minsky Posted September 28, 2022 Author Posted September 28, 2022 46 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said: can you reassign the depress to something else and retry ( so it is not on the mini stick ) I want to know if you notice a difference. I have it on separate buttons. Dima | My DCS uploads
Minsky Posted September 28, 2022 Author Posted September 28, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said: The way it is now is based on the best evidence we have, to change it I would need some public evidence to show to the team. I don't mean this to sound rude, but can the team just apply a basic human logic? Imagine the following: - Pilot receives coordinates in the vicinity of a target, creates waypoint, and presses WPDSG. - He hawks the area for some time, trying to discern a specific vehicle, or waiting for it to make a move. - Once finally cleared to engage, he tries to move the crosshair over the target, but WPDSG prevents him from doing so. - Human error, happens to the best of us, no biggie, right? He immediately presses TDC to correct that, and then the cursor starts to drift. While he tries to correct this, the moment's gone, and so is the target. I cannot think of a single scenario where such behavior could be of any use. Especially considering that this "feature" is not annunciated by any symbology, and the crosshair still implies that the pod is stabilized in the INR mode. And if neither the team or users possess documentation that explicitly confirms this behavior, I would rather go with implementation that makes logical sense, instead of something that looks like a bug. Edited September 28, 2022 by Minsky 9 1 Dima | My DCS uploads
Swift. Posted October 3, 2022 Posted October 3, 2022 On 9/28/2022 at 4:37 PM, BIGNEWY said: Hi @Bankler can you reassign the depress to something else and retry ( so it is not on the mini stick ) I want to know if you notice a difference. The way it is now is based on the best evidence we have, to change it I would need some public evidence to show to the team. thanks The issue is demonstrated here, it is the action of slewing before depressing the TDC that causes the drift. As for evidence, none is required as this is not an 'inaccuracy' report. It is a straight up bug report, a failure in the games code. 3 1 476th Discord | 476th Website | Swift Youtube Ryzen 5800x, RTX 4070ti, 64GB, Quest 2
Bankler Posted October 3, 2022 Posted October 3, 2022 (edited) On 9/28/2022 at 5:37 PM, BIGNEWY said: Hi @Bankler can you reassign the depress to something else and retry ( so it is not on the mini stick ) I want to know if you notice a difference. The way it is now is based on the best evidence we have, to change it I would need some public evidence to show to the team. thanks Thanks for the reply. Yes, just like I already stated: "The only workaround is to add a significant deadzone to the TDC axis or (what I've done) use a completely different HOTAS button for the TDC Depress action, than the actual TDC Depress button." (to be fair, I made a typo and wrote DCS instead of TDC in one place, sorry if this caused any confusion, this is fixed now) It doesn't technically matter if you use the TDC depress hardware button (like in the real jet) or something else. If you move the slew before pressing, it bugs out, that's it. The only difference, is that if you use the TDC depress hardware button, it's almost impossible to accomplish a "clean" depress without any slew input, while if you as a workaround use a completely different hardware button, you'll be okay, as long as you don't forget and accidently try to slew before pressing (like in @Minsky's example). Sidenote: The "best evidence" that this implementation is claimed to be based upon, what is that evidence exactly? Just like @Swift. suggests, in this case, it's not really an accuracy discussion anyway, but just an obvious input bug in the game. Still, it would still some of the frustration knowing what source is referenced, and it could also help clearing misunderstandings. Edited October 3, 2022 by Bankler 1 Bankler's CASE 1 Recovery Trainer
Harker Posted October 4, 2022 Posted October 4, 2022 The 746-100 describes the function of the TDC for the ATFLIR. The behavior discussed here is not mentioned anywhere in that document. The TDC is supposed to slew the pod, slew the offset reticle, and when depressed, create designations and bring up the offset cursor, when applicable.Slewing the TDC before depressing it and having the pod drift towards that direction is not mentioned anywhere.I can PM the relevant part, if needed. 6 The vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord. F/A-18C, F-15E, AV-8B, F-16C, JF-17, A-10C/CII, M-2000C, F-14, AH-64D, BS2, UH-1H, P-51D, Sptifire, FC3 - i9-13900K, 64GB @6400MHz RAM, 4090 Strix OC, Samsung 990 Pro
Bankler Posted October 4, 2022 Posted October 4, 2022 7 hours ago, Harker said: The 746-100 describes the function of the TDC for the ATFLIR. The behavior discussed here is not mentioned anywhere in that document. The TDC is supposed to slew the pod, slew the offset reticle, and when depressed, create designations and bring up the offset cursor, when applicable. Slewing the TDC before depressing it and having the pod drift towards that direction is not mentioned anywhere. I can PM the relevant part, if needed. Thank you, @Harker! 1 Bankler's CASE 1 Recovery Trainer
GumidekCZ Posted October 31, 2022 Posted October 31, 2022 Any progress here? @BIGNEWY this drift is huge all hornet owners HATED issue when operating ATFLIR and the drift make no sence to IRL usage. 2
GumidekCZ Posted November 6, 2022 Posted November 6, 2022 (edited) @BIGNEWY We "Hornet community" would like to kindly ask of any proof from ED side, that INR at ATFLIR have different behaviour from LITENING pod. (F-16 DCS manual): INR (inertial rates). In INR mode, the TGP maintains its LOS on a position using only inertial integration. Good vid about usage by WAGS. Edited November 6, 2022 by GumidekCZ 1
CaptPickguard Posted November 12, 2022 Posted November 12, 2022 On 11/6/2022 at 6:27 AM, GumidekCZ said: @BIGNEWY We "Hornet community" would like to kindly ask of any proof from ED side, that INR at ATFLIR have different behaviour from LITENING pod. (F-16 DCS manual): INR (inertial rates). In INR mode, the TGP maintains its LOS on a position using only inertial integration. Good vid about usage by WAGS. It is highly unlikely they have any specifics they can share with us, but Harker's contribution definitely deserves a closer look. Misinterpretations happen, and many sources need to be corroborated to come to an understanding of the big picture. 1
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