Should the M2KC be able to hold up against the Viper in a 2 circle fights?

[cmbaviator]

Hello,

 

After discussing with some player on the tempest server.

I was told that since the new engine modelisation early august, the mirage can know hold up against a Viper in a 2 circles fight which should be in reality is impossible as the F16 should overrate the Mirage anytime.

 

However, i was also told that F16 FM is solid accurate and so is the Mirage so how come the mirage holds up in a 2 circle fight?

 

Also how use the mirage in a 2 circle fight? i was told to pull hard until you reach 420 IAS and then relax the stick in order to maintain 420 ?

 

What's your opinion ?

 

thanks

[ricktoberfest]

You should be careful about what you hear on the internet. Some “player saying” does not make it true. 

[cmbaviator]

12 minutes ago, ricktoberfest said:

You should be careful about what you hear on the internet. Some “player saying” does not make it true. 

i mean if you have some aerodynamic knowledge, it’s impossible pour a delta wind aircraft to be successful in a 2 circle because the wing is a huge aerobrake

[myHelljumper]

4 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

Hello,

 

After discussing with some player on the tempest server.

I was told that since the new engine modelisation early august, the mirage can know hold up against a Viper in a 2 circles fight which should be in reality is impossible as the F16 should overrate the Mirage anytime.

 

However, i was also told that F16 FM is solid accurate and so is the Mirage so how come the mirage holds up in a 2 circle fight?

 

Also how use the mirage in a 2 circle fight? i was told to pull hard until you reach 420 IAS and then relax the stick in order to maintain 420 ?

 

What's your opinion ?

 

thanks

Hi,

Unless you have data on the Mirage turn rate, we will stick to our model which is based on SME feedback and known data points.

We can't use "this plane should be inferior to this plane" feedback as it is not based on true data.

Thanks.

[cmbaviator]

35 minutes ago, myHelljumper said:

Hi,

Unless you have data on the Mirage turn rate, we will stick to our model which is based on SME feedback and known data points.

We can't use "this plane should be inferior to this plane" feedback as it is not based on true data.

Thanks.

what does SME mean ?

[chroma_aus]

7 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

what does SME mean ?

Subject Matter Expert

[falcon_120]

Last time I checked the viper ate the m2000 alive in a 2 circle fight in DCS, particularly after the latest changes to the viper. Isn't that so?

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[cmbaviator]

3 minutes ago, falcon_120 said:

Last time I checked the viper ate the m2000 alive in a 2 circle fight in DCS, particularly after the latest changes to the viper. Isn't that so?

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk
 

any video proof ?

[Galinette]

1 hour ago, cmbaviator said:

any video proof ?

Since you started this discussion, you could highlight it with a video proof too, this will motivate other people to do so.
 

This being said, any BFM/dogfight video will never be a "proof" as skill is generally a greater outcome factor than anything else.

[howie87]

I saw this earlier in the week 

[cmbaviator]

3 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

Since you started this discussion, you could highlight it with a video proof too, this will motivate other people to do so.
 

This being said, any BFM/dogfight video will never be a "proof" as skill is generally a greater outcome factor than anything else.

basically a delta wing fighter jet wouldn't be able to last long against a 2 circle aircraft like the Viper because of the enormous drag of the delta wings, some says that since the Engine buff of the mirage, you can do like 10+ circles.

 

GS did a F16 vs mirage 3/4 months ago so before the update and the mirage was clearly struggling to say the least. However i don't now since the new engine update

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Dear G*D! I have completely let my ACM/BFM skills atrophy, in favor of AG. As I tend to be mission oriented, vs AA kill score. If mission is to place bombs on target, I am the AG element. Letting AI escort me. To me strike is the core mission, and everything else is the suppourt element. 

Strike/CAS element- AG munition haulers. Core mission. 

Escort element DCA: suppourt mission.

In-Flight : suppourt

SEAD: Suppourt

Fighter sweep OCA: suppourt

CAP/Intercept DCA: suppourt

AWACS: Suppourt and C&C.

That said. I find it pleasantly surprising that M2KC in Air-air with F-16 can hold its own or even win, depending on pilot skill. I figure that deltas are not a sustained rate of turn in a circle fight , strong. Fighters with LEXR have slower energy bleed, and have higher nose authority at lower speeds then delta winged fighters. Deltas should shed energy faster then F-16/18/Mig29/SU-27 in a sustained turned. Thus slowing down faster, and low energy delta wing aircraft is at energy disadvantage. Perhaps this is not so, at least in DCS. To me DCS: MK2C is an energy fighter with corner velocity of 420-450 IAS, and should avoid sustained turn fights.

Mirage2K vs F-16 is a real world thing and has happened in a hostile situations.  Greek Mirage2K fought TUrkish F-16 over Aegean.  India has Mirage2K, Pakistan has F-16.

[myHelljumper]

25 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

basically a delta wing fighter jet wouldn't be able to last long against a 2 circle aircraft like the Viper because of the enormous drag of the delta wings, some says that since the Engine buff of the mirage, you can do like 10+ circles.

 

GS did a F16 vs mirage 3/4 months ago so before the update and the mirage was clearly struggling to say the least. However i don't now since the new engine update

Again, based on what data ?

The Mirage 2000 is not a Mirage III or a F-106, it's design is very different:

• The wing behave like a LERX delta thanks to the strakes on the intakes which is less draggy than a delta.
• The aircraft is unstable, needing the elevons to counter the nose tendency to climb in a turn, reducing the drag
• The slats helps a lot with the drag at AoA.

As I said before, we tuned the FM based on SME feedback and known data-points like videos and procedures. We were forced to use these methods because no reliable public data exists for the Mirage 2000 turn performances.

Again, "armchair pilot knowledge" cannot be used to tune an aircraft FM.

So unless you can provide solid, numerical data (STR, ITR) for the module that obviously does not make sense, we cannot take your feedback into account.

Thanks.

[cmbaviator]

3 minutes ago, myHelljumper said:

Again, based on what data ?

The Mirage 2000 is not a Mirage III or a F-106, it's design is very different:

• The wing behave like a LERX delta thanks to the strakes on the intakes which is less draggy than a delta.
• The aircraft is unstable, needing the elevons to counter the nose tendency to climb in a turn, reducing the drag
• The slats helps a lot with the drag at AoA.

As I said before, we tuned the FM based on SME feedback and known data-points like videos and procedures. We were forced to use these methods because no reliable public data exists for the Mirage 2000 turn performances.

Again, "armchair pilot knowledge" cannot be used to tune an aircraft FM.

So unless you can provide solid, numerical data (STR, ITR) for the module that obviously does not make sense, we cannot take your feedback into account.

Thanks.

 

Im' not saying its wrong or right, i was just asking a question

[Galinette]

29 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

basically a delta wing fighter jet wouldn't be able to last long against a 2 circle aircraft like the Viper because of the enormous drag of the delta wings, some says that since the Engine buff of the mirage, you can do like 10+ circles.

 

GS did a F16 vs mirage 3/4 months ago so before the update and the mirage was clearly struggling to say the least. However i don't now since the new engine update

Well yes the idea that delta wings are as aerodynamic as an ironshoe, whereas classic wings are cutting through air like a knife, are occasionally shared in sim forums, but no. The "enormous drag" is a myth.

Yes, if you look at wing only models, using the same wing profile, same wing area, and compare a delta to a classical wing, there is a difference in favor of the classical design, but it's measured in percents, not "enormous drag difference", and this only at low AoAs.

Now add body, pylons, cockpit, high lift devices (slats, flaps), egrets, nose, lift bodies, flat bellies, various wing profiles, different masses, engine thrust (and actual engine thrust in a turn is not the static thrust you find by simple web searches), and high AoAs, and thing get complicated. And you don't get "the group of classic wing fighters" vs "the group of delta wings fighter" with the former one well above the latter when it comes to performance.
Also add to this that delta aerodynamics have been continuously improved. You cant put a Rafale delta wing on the same performance box as a F-106 delta dart.

[myHelljumper]

38 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

basically a delta wing fighter jet wouldn't be able to last long against a 2 circle aircraft like the Viper because of the enormous drag of the delta wings, some says that since the Engine buff of the mirage, you can do like 10+ circles.

6 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

i mean if you have some aerodynamic knowledge, it’s impossible pour a delta wind aircraft to be successful in a 2 circle because the wing is a huge aerobrake

Sorry, I don't understand these sentences as questions.

Anyways, I answered your question, the Mirage 2000 design resolve a lot of the issues that previous delta winged aircraft had.

Thanks.

[falcon_120]

any video proof ?

Shouldn't you just jump on DCS and try yourself better?

I said last time I Checked myself. Also check these, in both the hornet and vipers turn out as superior 2 circle fighter against the mirage (in DCS i mean), so all in order right regarding your OP claim?

[/url]



Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[cmbaviator]

1 hour ago, falcon_120 said:

Shouldn't you just jump on DCS and try yourself better?

I said last time I Checked myself. Also check these, in both the hornet and vipers turn out as superior 2 circle fighter against the mirage (in DCS i mean), so all in order right regarding your OP claim?

[/url]



Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

 

there is already a video
 

 I dont see the viper being superior and as the player said, the mirage was sometimes even gaining speed

[Galinette]

When he says the mirage gains speed, it seems to me it has -10° slope.

As said before, a dogfight video isn't a proof, energy is not constant, and skill is involved.

Another example, in the first tacview images, the F-16 is gaining altitude while turning, the Mirage is loosing altitude. The mirage has more initial energy and has an advantage.

Skills skills skills.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Kercheiz

[Archi]

Whichever video is posted above shows exactly why random opinions with no numbers or actual data mean nothing. Nice clickbait title, give me some numbers. Not going to comment the poor dog fighting by the viper in this video.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Archi

[GGTharos]

The video is meaningless as are most equipment-free comparisons.   These aircraft would never be in fight without equipment (pylons etc) which not only add drag, but importantly they destroy lift.  I don't know how well this is represented in DCS, and perhaps even on a module-by-module basis, but overall all of this means nothing.  Besides, this video doesn't demonstrate anything other than someone in a very light aircraft staying in a controlling position which let's face it, if you're not flying something that's completely inferior, isn't exactly a huge accomplishment.

There's no chart being produced or shown here, and any 'comparison' in which you run yourself out of gas is silly.  But I get it, people want to get their BFM on and nothing else matters.  The point though is simple:  The scenario does not reflect reality and therefore questions about realism do not apply.

Besides the M2K FM is more of a guess than most other modules; RAZBAM have done their best with the available information and there's basically nothing to complain about unless, as pointed out, someone brings solid numbers into this.

[HWasp]

https://hushkit.net/2019/08/12/mig-29-versus-mirage-2000-personal-account-from-by-air-marshal-harish-masand/

 

I have never ever heard any sources claim, that the Mirage 2000 is a superior rate fighter compared to the MiG-29 and F-16.

A long time ago the airforce of my country was considering to purchase the Mirage 2000, and one of the negative aspects claimed was inferior sustained turn rate compared to the MiG-29 and F-16. 

Both F-16 and MiG-29 have a good amount of data publicly available and they both seem to be modeled accurately in DCS currently, so I would consider them a good point of reference.

Obviously exact values cannot be determined by comparisons like this, but it is an important reality check, especially if there is no public data to refer to. 

Doing just a quick test to see what is going on, the M2000 seems to beat the F-16 (clean 25%fuel) regarding STR 

------------------------------

So just to establish basic common grounds for this:

- According to SMEs and public sources available, is the Mirage 2000C a superior 2 circle (rate) fighter against the MiG-29 and F-16C ?  Yes/No (Please link source)

[HWasp]

Made some quick tests for max. STR M2000 vs F-16 vs MiG-29 (clean, 25% fuel)

For me max STR (standard dcs 20C SL almost) (infobar readings)

- M2000 : 9,2G / 450 Kts ---> 22,2 DPS

- F-16      : 9,2G / 470 Kts ---> 21,2 DPS (I think that is exactly as per HAF manual 22k lbs)

- MiG-29A : approx 9G / 460 Kts ---> 21,2 DPS (this is really the least accurate test, that thing is more difficult to fly, but matches MiG-29 chart )

 

While these are hand flown tests, I think they are accurate enough to establish that currently M2000 has the highest maximum STR among these 3 modules.

 

 

M2000STR_1122.trk F_16STR_1122.trk MiG29STR_1122.trk

[sylkhan]

3 hours ago, HWasp said:

Both F-16 and MiG-29 have a good amount of data publicly available and they both seem to be modeled accurately in DCS currently,

Mig29 modeled accurately :),it's the worst dogfighter in DCS compared to F16, F18, JF17, Mirage2K, F14.

Edited November 1, 2022 by sylkhan

[HWasp]

35 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

Mig29 modeled accurately :),it's the worst dogfighter in DCS compared to F16, F18, JF17, Mirage2K, F14.

 

Well, for STR it does match the chart.

Otherwise I suspect, that anomalies like that are there because some modules overperform a bit, like the F18 for example... 

Anyway, the MiG-29 charts are available publicly, and if the M2000 has superior max STR, there is a small problem, I think.