correct as-is New A/A Weapon Release Delay

[DSplayer]

From what I read in the patch notes for the OB 2.8.0.32066, firing the AIM-120 was missing a delay which has now been added. The problem is that AIM-9s also have this delay. Is this intentional? Its problematic when trying to release a SW in a hurry and trying to leave as soon as possible.

[Hulkbust44]

Yeah definitely not right for SRMs. I'm sure the entire delay is wrong to begin with. There's a launch initiate delay, which is when all the data gets sent to the weapon and it's prepped for release. Not that the trigger needs to be held for that long.

[CaptPickguard]

It is my understanding that while there correctly should be a delay from trigger pull to fire, you should absolutely not need to hold the trigger like as is the case with the F-16's Weapon Release.

While this new addition was almost certainly added based on documentation, I think it could easily have been a misinterpretation with regards to if the trigger must be held for the duration of the delay. This is something an SME could definitely easily settle.

[Dragon1-1]

The trigger, like the pickle on the Viper, authorizes the launch. If at any point during the launch sequence it is released, it means authorization is revoked. Could be, for instance, that you realized you have the wrong target at last second.

Sidewinders should go off the rail instantly since they don't need any data from the jet.

[DSplayer]

I actually did some tests by trying to time the time in between trigger pull and weapon release and it seems like it's just the heat of the battle making the time last a lot longer than it actually is. SW do have a delay of around 0.2 seconds while AMRAAMs and Sparrows have a delay of around 1.2 seconds. SWs on other jets seem to basically be instant however so take that as you will.

[Dragon1-1]

It's quite possible the other jets are the unrealistic ones here. 0.2s sounds like something that could come from the real hardware, although I never launched a Sidewinder IRL, so I don't actually know. 

It would probably seem like a lot longer in the middle of a dogfight, though.  

Edited November 1, 2022 by Dragon1-1

[MARLAN_]

A rhino pilot in my discord group/wing says he holds down the trigger for a couple seconds.

I didn't think to clarify his answer whether he was taught that/it's required, or it's his personal habit pattern or whatever else, but based on that limited information it does sound like the current implementation is correct.

Edited November 1, 2022 by MARLAN_

[Ephedrin]

Question:

 

what data do AMRAAM and Sparrow need to be loaded into? The Amraam is guided via datalink and the sparrow is a semi active radar homing missile that doesn‘t get or require any data at all. The connection between aircraft and Aim120 happens when you bump the weapon select switch up doesn‘t it?

[CaptPickguard]

On 10/31/2022 at 4:32 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

The trigger, like the pickle on the Viper, authorizes the launch. If at any point during the launch sequence it is released, it means authorization is revoked. Could be, for instance, that you realized you have the wrong target at last second.

Sidewinders should go off the rail instantly since they don't need any data from the jet.

Do you have any evidence that this is how it works in the Hornet or are you just assuming every plane works like in the Viper?

If you look at the Tomcat, you'll see another way things can work. Only a momentary trigger pull is required, a short delay passes, then the missile is launched. This is how it should work in the Hornet, not some copy-pasted Viper logic.

While you CAN hold the trigger until launch, you should not strictly have to. That is the bug here.

[Hulkbust44]

Question:
 
what data do AMRAAM and Sparrow need to be loaded into? The Amraam is guided via datalink and the sparrow is a semi active radar homing missile that doesn‘t get or require any data at all. The connection between aircraft and Aim120 happens when you bump the weapon select switch up doesn‘t it?

The Sparrow actually has an involved launch initiate process.

The missile needs to be tuned, a compatible radar waveform activated, rear signal search and reception begins, and load the initial navigation commands.

[Ephedrin]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Hulkbust44:

The Sparrow actually has an involved launch initiate process.

The missile needs to be tuned, a compatible radar waveform activated, tear signal search and reception begins, and load the initial navigation commands.
 

Understood, thank you!

[Bunny Clark]

On 11/2/2022 at 3:44 AM, Ephedrin said:

what data do AMRAAM and Sparrow need to be loaded into? The Amraam is guided via datalink and the sparrow is a semi active radar homing missile that doesn‘t get or require any data at all. The connection between aircraft and Aim120 happens when you bump the weapon select switch up doesn‘t it?

For AMRAAM: Initial target data is sent to the missile in case the datalink fails or the track is dumped immediately after launch. The datalink itself also needs to be initialized so the missile knows what datalink signal to be looking for. If the target is close enough for the missile to go active off the rails, the initial target data that is uploaded is what it will use to begin its search and target acquisition, so it doesn't need to wait for a datalink signal before maneuvering for intercept.

For Sparrow: the missile is "tuned" to the launching aircraft. Each aircraft's illumination signal is encoded, and then the missile tuned to that signal, so that the missile can tell its target apart from the targets being illuminated by other aircraft for other Sparrows. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Bunny Clark

[Steel Jaw]

EXCELLENT info, cheers.

[Ephedrin]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Bunny Clark:

For AMRAAM: Initial target data is sent to the missile in case the datalink fails or the track is dumped immediately after launch. The datalink itself also needs to be initialized so the missile knows what datalink signal to be looking for. If the target is close enough for the missile to go active off the rails, the initial target data that is uploaded is what it will use to begin its search and target acquisition, so it doesn't need to wait for a datalink signal before maneuvering for intercept.

For Sparrow: the missile is "tuned" to the launching aircraft. Each aircraft's illumination signal is encoded, and then the missile tuned to that signal, so that the missile can tell its target apart from the targets being illuminated by other aircraft for other Sparrows. 

 

Great explanation, thank you!

[Hazardpro]

On 11/15/2022 at 8:15 PM, Bunny Clark said:

For AMRAAM: Initial target data is sent to the missile in case the datalink fails or the track is dumped immediately after launch. The datalink itself also needs to be initialized so the missile knows what datalink signal to be looking for. If the target is close enough for the missile to go active off the rails, the initial target data that is uploaded is what it will use to begin its search and target acquisition, so it doesn't need to wait for a datalink signal before maneuvering for intercept.

For Sparrow: the missile is "tuned" to the launching aircraft. Each aircraft's illumination signal is encoded, and then the missile tuned to that signal, so that the missile can tell its target apart from the targets being illuminated by other aircraft for other Sparrows. 

 

Do you have a source for the delay being required for data transfer? Seems more likely it would be required for the mechanical functions of the missile, gyros and hydraulics.

[Hulkbust44]

1 hour ago, Hazardpro said:

Do you have a source for the delay being required for data transfer? Seems more likely it would be required for the mechanical functions of the missile, gyros and hydraulics.

There is a delay for it, but not where you need to hold the trigger, that is a bug.

@BIGNEWY Revisit this please. I'm pinging as it's the only way for someone to see a "correct as is" thread. At minimum the sidewinder being delayed can't be correct.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Hulkbust44

[Ramstein]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:51 PM, Ephedrin said:

Great explanation, thank you!

got to think to that they weapons package and electronics were designed decades ago, and took a long while to implement and interface with updates in technology. It wasn't long ago that the 16 bit memory (8 bit was till used in many hardware designs in the 1980's) and flash loading and checksums were not a second fast, and the electronics was not just built for speed but also the aircraft environment. The interface is probably decades old and cannot compare to today (2010+). I too get pissed when I pull the trigger and wait forever.

[Steel Jaw]

That other sim has the same missile launch delays so me thinks it's correct.

[GGTharos]

Other sims are not a benchmark of realism, whether they agree or not.  IRL manuals are benchmarks of realism.