LS-6 100 Laser JDAM and LS-6 250 JSOW

[El Phantasmo]

Do we have any documentation on employment of these yet? I've noticed some possible issues with them so far.

LS-6 100 - Is this supposed to be laser guided only or does it also have GPS? It is giving drop audio tones at 10 plus miles and it seems capable of flying that distance however the laser is set to auto and would require manual lazing if dropped from that distance. 

LS-6 250 - This seems to work just like the 500 however when I tried to change the impact azimuth the stores would not drop when I was in the release zone.

[AeriaGloria]

11 hours ago, El Phantasmo said:

Do we have any documentation on employment of these yet? I've noticed some possible issues with them so far.

LS-6 100 - Is this supposed to be laser guided only or does it also have GPS? It is giving drop audio tones at 10 plus miles and it seems capable of flying that distance however the laser is set to auto and would require manual lazing if dropped from that distance. 

LS-6 250 - This seems to work just like the 500 however when I tried to change the impact azimuth the stores would not drop when I was in the release zone.

100 is LJDAM. So you can treat it like JDAM or laser guided bomb. 
 

 

[Falconeer]

LS-6 100 is more a smaller GBU-12. As far as i have seen, you cannot drop it onto a PP or other pre-planned point. So therefore it's not a real JDAM like the western versions are (atleast this is how it seems to be in DCS)

 

Also the laser is not lasing long enough, it stops lasing before the bomb hit, if released at max range? I think the WMD-7 is starting too early with the lasing. If you look at the western TGP's, they lase mostly the last 10-15 seconds before impact, not from the point when the bombs leave the aircraft

Edited October 30, 2022 by Falconeer

[El Phantasmo]

1 hour ago, Falconeer said:

LS-6 100 is more a smaller GBU-12. As far as i have seen, you cannot drop it onto a PP or other pre-planned point. So therefore it's not a real JDAM like the western versions are (atleast this is how it seems to be in DCS)

 

Also the laser is not lasing long enough, it stops lasing before the bomb hit, if released at max range? I think the WMD-7 is starting too early with the lasing. If you look at the western TGP's, they lase mostly the last 10-15 seconds before impact, not from the point when the bombs leave the aircraft

 

Yeah this confirms my testing as well. No GPS guidance with the 100. Its just acting like a standard GBU that you can drop around 12 miles from target. The laser time does need to be adjusted a tad but it seems to be helping guide it however if you drop from max distance, after receiving the drop cue, it will guide to target. Problem is when it gets close to target the laser has already turned off and it loses its precision, causing it to overshoot a little.

[Foogle]

@uboatsis this correct? Is the LS-6-100 only laser homing? Why would it need a data cable if it doesn't have GPS/INS guidance 

[Napillo]

5 minutes ago, Foogle said:

is this correct

it's not correct - I've had it hit within 5 meters of my target without lasing, just with such a small munition, you want to get within 1 or 2, which is what lasing helps with.

[El Phantasmo]

1 hour ago, Napillo said:

it's not correct - I've had it hit within 5 meters of my target without lasing, just with such a small munition, you want to get within 1 or 2, which is what lasing helps with.

That would correlate more towards on board INS vs GPS

[Stryker990]

Wanted to give me 2 cents earlier but i had to wait for the 24h waiting period for posting on new accounts to do it but the LS-6 100 as of open beta version 2.8.0.32066 does have GPS/INS+Laser seekers like the GBU-54 Laser-JDAM: i did 2 different tests each without the use of laser designation from 30k feet drop altitude roughtly 13miles from target

Test 1: In this Test i used waypoints (didnt test pre-plan points (PP1-PP4)) set in the editor to attack 4 T-90 tanks. My jeff had only the 4 LS-6 100 equipped. By cycling through the 4 waypoints all 4 T-90s got destroyed by direct hits

Test 2: In this Test i used point designation with the TPOD which was set to a different laser code than the LS-6's and again all 4 bombs direct impacted all 4 T-90's destroying them

Additionally in both tests my planes heading was offset a few degrees to the left from the target so that it couldnt be fluke hits.

 

I think the perception that the LS-6 100 doesnt have GPS/INS guidance comes from that we currently cant switch the laser from auto designation to manual (at least i dont think we can) and i think if the LS-6 detects a laser designation it turns off GPS/INS completely and just relies on the laser and since the laser timer at maximum distances runs out b4 the bomb hits, if the laser isnt reengaged in time the bomb just looses all guidance and doesnt revert to GPS/INS guidance. This is theory from my part tho i dont know enough on how the weapon behaves in DCS to say that with certainty.

Edit: Forgot the part i wanted to say about the LS-6-250 i tried the impact azimuth mode and it worked for me...so maybe you overlooked something (maybe they werent aligned yet) in the moment?

Edited October 30, 2022 by Stryker990

[El Phantasmo]

So in this case it seems likely the issue is the way the 100 is implemented in the AG menu. Realistically it should just be setup the same way as the rest of the GPS bombs i.e. TOO and PP modes, but it also needs a 3rd option which in this case could be the auto mode which would allow you to use the laser guidance.

It might be confusing to call it auto maybe but ACT like the LD-10?

Edited October 31, 2022 by El Phantasmo
additional info

[Napillo]

I don't know, I think it's easy enough to turn on/off the laser as needed. Just push the button on the ufcp. If you're dropping it from within about 5nm, use the laser and leave it, it should reach the target before the laser times out - if you're dropping from max distance, then let it go and hope it hits. It would be nice if you drop from max range and the computer knows when to turn on the laser, but you can just turn it off after it launches, wait about 30 seconds, then turn it on yourself. 

[El Phantasmo]

That seems pretty convoluted, especially since the Jeff is made to be user friendly. I still think that treating its interface the same as the other GPS bombs and adding a laser option would make it extremely simple.   

[Stryker990]

In the end its not about the bomb but that as the jeff currently is, its the only jet i know where the TPOD is locked into automatic laser activation and doesnt have the option for either manual laser activation or automatic activation. The mode selection on the stores page doesnt have anything to do with the laser on the TPOD. I might get corrected on this but auto and too modes are just CCRP drop modes with limited if at all differences between each other.

[El Phantasmo]

Until we get @uboats or someone else to speak as to proper implementation this is all speculation. We dont really have a way of knowing how its supposed to work IRL but just have to rely on devs making a close approximation. Now I am assuming the audible drop cue is probably intended however this process really seems counterintuitive in comparison with the rest of the LS family of weapons. 

If this really is intended to be a JDAM style weapon it should in theory have all the features of the smart weapons, TOO and PP modes, drop zone ranging on HSD. Compare it to something like the GBU-38 which gives you those features in the Hornet. The GBU-54 laser version in the Hawg gives you options in the setup to either toggle auto or manual lasing or none at all and use it strictly as a GPS weapon. 

Again, this is all just speculation until we get a definitive answer. That being said, I like the new additions so far. They are awesome to have to make an enjoyable plane even more so. I just think that the 100 is a little half baked just on initial appearances and testing.

As a quick side note, why are we unable to carry them on the inner pylons? The inners can carry the 500 and GB-6 bombs so it shouldnt be an issue with the data bus I would assume, unless it isnt capable of supporting the dual rack. If that is truly the issue, why not give the option to carry just one 100 or 250 on the inner pylon?

[Hiten Bongz]

Lasers should NEVER fire as soon as an LGB (or JDAM) is released. It only needs to fire in terminal guidance. In fact, lasing the whole time decreases accuracy of LGBs...this has been proven IRL and I can't imagine the real Jeff is setup to fire a laser the moment one of these bombs are released. That makes no sense and is detrimental to accuracy.

The laser isn't lasing long enough because aircraft lasers are designed to shut off after a short time, to prevent overheating and damage/destruction of the laser. That's another reason - besides the worsened accuracy - that lasers aren't fired immediately and ran until their maximum cut-off time, upon dropping a guided laser bomb.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Hiten Bongz

[uboats]

Thanks for your interests and concerns for ls6-100. So far, what we know and can confirm is the test of ls6-500 on J-8II, while ls6-250 is a smaller ver of ls6-500.

But for ls6-100, it's a laser jdam, and it's mainly for fun at this moment, and still half baked. For more detail, I will check SME later.

Due to the very limited time between Oct update and submit deadline for Nov update, I may not have time to fix bugs/improve ls6-100 related for Nov update

[Napillo]

4 hours ago, El Phantasmo said:

why are we unable to carry them on the inner pylons?

if I'd have to guess, I'd say there's not enough data connections, those pylons normally have just one connection. You can carry two sd-10 or ld-10 on outer stations, so it makes sense you have two on each outer pylon.

[El Phantasmo]

9 hours ago, Napillo said:

if I'd have to guess, I'd say there's not enough data connections, those pylons normally have just one connection. You can carry two sd-10 or ld-10 on outer stations, so it makes sense you have two on each outer pylon.

Right. That was more or less my point. If it cant handle the double rack, why cant we just put a single 100 or 250 on the inner pylons.

[uboats]

1 hour ago, El Phantasmo said:

Right. That was more or less my point. If it cant handle the double rack, why cant we just put a single 100 or 250 on the inner pylons.

I think pylon hook distance not match small bomb

[El Phantasmo]

12 minutes ago, uboats said:

I think pylon hook distance not match small bomb

@uboatsThat makes sense. I'm assuming the 250 is also too small to fit the inner pylon hook as well? Also, will there be an option to carry the LS-6 bombs on the centerline station? I came across this image where it shows that as a possibility.

[uboats]

you may notice for inner and centerline, they are all 500kg/1000kg

[El Phantasmo]

13 minutes ago, uboats said:

you may notice for inner and centerline, they are all 500kg/1000kg

Correct. I am wondering if it would be possible in the future to carry the LS-6 500 on the centerline 

[uboats]

I think it's possible, at least there's j-8ii carrying ls6-500 on center line as ref.

[El Phantasmo]

28 minutes ago, uboats said:

I think it's possible, at least there's j-8ii carrying ls6-500 on center line as ref.

And is there any possibility of getting that J-8II as a module in game? lol

 

[Hiten Bongz]

Being able to carry 3x LS-6-500 or GB-6-500 would be awesome, amongst other things... 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Hiten Bongz

[AeriaGloria]

22 hours ago, El Phantasmo said:

@uboatsThat makes sense. I'm assuming the 250 is also too small to fit the inner pylon hook as well? Also, will there be an option to carry the LS-6 bombs on the centerline station? I came across this image where it shows that as a possibility.

I can’t express enough how fake this is. They happen to be right about bomb placement. Anything that says defence, PAKDEF, or PAF wallpapers is a good sign it’s not official but made by fanboy.

Granted, if center LS-6/GB-6 is accurate, maybe this fake picture actually did some good