LOAL self designating.

[MrReynolds]

I am sure this is my user issue - but here goes.

I want to so a pop up attack, usually against an SA15 or 8.

 

By all accounts we are supposed to have the waypoint / target selected for LOAL (Hi or Lo).  Fire, and with >=8 seconds remaining fire the laser.

Using Casmo's great video (thanks) I am thinking:

1) the hellfire will dive / drop to or near the mark point.

2) we have the luxury of around 10 seconds before we have to lase (giving you time to hide and then pop up late).

 

What I'm seeing is that if I lase (from around 8/9 km) I HAVE to lase @22 seconds or preferably greater for the missile to drop down and hit the target.  Otherwise it just flies straight on.  It certainly never seems to go near the target until the laser is on.  This isn't much better than a LOBL.

It DOES tell me to lase, but that is @24/5 seconds which, with the speed of the Hellfire I'm dead if I have to hang around that long.

As designed, or a bug?  There is no way in hell the seeker head will see my laser with only 8 seconds left.

All's good if I lase >22 seconds or if there's a UAV spotting.

Video incoming, but YouTube processing and need to dash.

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by MrReynolds

[Floyd1212]

You don't mention the trajectory mode you are using in your situation.  Have you tried LO or DIR to keep the missile lower, and able to spot your laser later in its flight?

[MrReynolds]

1 hour ago, Floyd1212 said:

You don't mention the trajectory mode you are using in your situation.  Have you tried LO or DIR to keep the missile lower, and able to spot your laser later in its flight?

Good point, I'll edit.

I'm setting LOAL - Hi, or Lo.  The point is to loft, and then pop up, therefore there is no laser to begin with.

Edited October 30, 2022 by MrReynolds

[NeedzWD40]

Right now, the HELLFIRE doesn't use the coordinates for anything, all that does is give you a reference point for time to impact and where to line up. It's incredibly picky about field of view and I've noticed it has a tendency to make last second acquisitions that usually miss because it can't change its trajectory that easily. I've only really gotten a LOAL self designate to work when things are perfectly timed in a perfect field of view.

[Floyd1212]

Even in LOAL DIR mode, there is a little bit of loft to the missile trajectory to get up over the tops of those trees.

Try DIR and see if the missile stays lower, and can pick up on your laser energy later in the process.

[admiki]

3 hours ago, MrReynolds said:

I am sure this is my user issue - but here goes.

I want to so a pop up attack, usually against an SA15 or 8.

 

By all accounts we are supposed to have the waypoint / target selected for LOAL (Hi or Lo).  Fire, and with >=8 seconds remaining fire the laser.

Using Casmo's great video (thanks) I am thinking:

1) the hellfire will dive / drop to or near the mark point.

2) we have the luxury of around 10 seconds before we have to lase (giving you time to hide and then pop up late).

 

What I'm seeing is that if I lase (from around 8/9 km) I HAVE to lase @22 seconds or preferably greater for the missile to drop down and hit the target.  Otherwise it just flies straight on.  It certainly never seems to go near the target until the laser is on.  This isn't much better than a LOBL.

It DOES tell me to lase, but that is @24/5 seconds which, with the speed of the Hellfire I'm dead if I have to hang around that long.

As designed, or a bug?  There is no way in hell the seeker head will see my laser with only 8 seconds left.

All's good if I lase >22 seconds or if there's a UAV spotting.

Video incoming, but YouTube processing and need to dash.

 

 

I might be wrong, but Hellfire never used waypoint to get near the target. Waypoint is for you to get helicopter into launch constraints so missile will have the chance to pick the laser.

Also, while 22 seconds is long time, if you are not tracked before you pop up, no SAM system will be able to kill you in that timeframe.

If you are hiding behind a hill or a tree, get as close as possible to give yourself angle advantage. If you are hovering 1000 feet from the hill, you will have to climb long way to get LOS.

[MrReynolds]

Thanks all so far.

Yes - it would seem the target / waypoint is for our "pointing" constraints to line the bird up.

I'm right nap of the earth, close in so I bob up to get the initial view, then down.  Then fire and then bob up again.  by that point I lase, but often the hellfire just flies in a straight line, as if it's not bothering to look down anymore.

 

[NeedzWD40]

I did a little bit of testing from the front seat:

- You must be perfectly aligned in the yaw axis. Being even a couple degrees off will result in the missile failing to acquire. I believe there is a potential FOV issue with the seeker head as it seems narrower than the 30+- degrees my sources give. Acquisition source makes no difference here outside of giving you initial range and heading info. Unfortunately, due to the INU bug, sometimes your points will be off 50 to 150m, so this is a very, very, very generalized reference.

- You must lase as soon as the cue tells you to. Failing to do so means the missile will likely not acquire. If it does acquire, it's likely to do so far too late to make a trajectory change.

- The lasing cue is variable on the distance. 7-8km launches with a LO mode will give a cue about 12-14 seconds after launch, which means terminal lase for up to 22 seconds. DIR is most restrictive, but LOAL-DIR is intended to be used with LOS anyways. HI gives the most time but your minimum range climbs way up to the tune of 3500m. The shortest cue I saw was about 3 seconds after launch.

Whether or not these behaviors are correct is outside of my knowledge, but the above is what we have to work with.

[Floyd1212]

After you launch the missile LOAL, and then lase while the missile is in the air, the constraints box goes to a large solid square to indicate there is good laser return to the seeker.  Is this indicating the seeker of the missile in the air, or the next missile on the rack?

[AvroLanc]

4 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

After you launch the missile LOAL, and then lase while the missile is in the air, the constraints box goes to a large solid square to indicate there is good laser return to the seeker.  Is this indicating the seeker of the missile in the air, or the next missile on the rack?

The next missile in sequence on the rack. Once the missile has gone, it’s gone….there’s no way of telling if it’s tracking the laser spot. 

[AeriaGloria]

11 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

I did a little bit of testing from the front seat:

- You must be perfectly aligned in the yaw axis. Being even a couple degrees off will result in the missile failing to acquire. I believe there is a potential FOV issue with the seeker head as it seems narrower than the 30+- degrees my sources give. Acquisition source makes no difference here outside of giving you initial range and heading info. Unfortunately, due to the INU bug, sometimes your points will be off 50 to 150m, so this is a very, very, very generalized reference.

- You must lase as soon as the cue tells you to. Failing to do so means the missile will likely not acquire. If it does acquire, it's likely to do so far too late to make a trajectory change.

- The lasing cue is variable on the distance. 7-8km launches with a LO mode will give a cue about 12-14 seconds after launch, which means terminal lase for up to 22 seconds. DIR is most restrictive, but LOAL-DIR is intended to be used with LOS anyways. HI gives the most time but your minimum range climbs way up to the tune of 3500m. The shortest cue I saw was about 3 seconds after launch.

Whether or not these behaviors are correct is outside of my knowledge, but the above is what we have to work with.

According to LUA, it is 7.96 degree FOV. But the gimbal can rotate 30 degrees in pitch and yaw. So it will see anything about 4 degrees from the nose, and only when locked on can the gimbal go the full 30 degrees

[Moxica]

Same behaviour in some scenarios where JTAC is lasing. Lots of xpensive hellfires miss unless perfectly aligned.
My problem when hovering behind cover; find the alignment. Is it really hit and miss?

[NeedzWD40]

12 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

According to LUA, it is 7.96 degree FOV. But the gimbal can rotate 30 degrees in pitch and yaw. So it will see anything about 4 degrees from the nose, and only when locked on can the gimbal go the full 30 degrees

If that's the case, no wonder there's a lot of problems. LOAL mode is supposed to scan a fairly wide box, with initial launch constraints being a max +-7.5 degrees offset.

[Rongor]

On 10/30/2022 at 6:52 PM, admiki said:

Also, while 22 seconds is long time, if you are not tracked before you pop up, no SAM system will be able to kill you in that timeframe.

It will certainly launch at you within 22 seconds and with the current accuracy of player and/or George launched Hellfires, there is a decent chance you won't kill the SAM system before its launch hits you. Killing the SAM at max Hellfire range before it kills you is nowhere safe enough to be counted on.
Counting on your Hellfire killing the SAM before the SAM counter missile hits you is a huge gamble you will often lose.
 

On 10/30/2022 at 6:52 PM, admiki said:

If you are hiding behind a hill or a tree, get as close as possible to give yourself angle advantage. If you are hovering 1000 feet from the hill, you will have to climb long way to get LOS.

Actually I would totally recommend to launch from a distance behind the hill tip. It doesn't affect the time you need to break LOS, you get a ballistic advantage and you gain a lot more space in front of you for your evasion (or hectic contingency maneuvers) in case other threats surprise you. Staying close behind a tree, hill or other obstacle reduces your space to maneuver and increases your chance to hit something. Keep some space, retain flexibility.

[MrReynolds]

Turning into an interesting topic chaps.

I'm using LOAL all if the time now - just for testing and certainly not realistic.  I aim for hiding behind trees / buildings like Rongor said above,  and onboard with what he / you have said about 22 seconds + a bit of distance behind trees

Interesting to read about the lua file too.  THANKS.

Keep it up chaps 

[admiki]

10 hours ago, Rongor said:

Actually I would totally recommend to launch from a distance behind the hill tip. It doesn't affect the time you need to break LOS, you get a ballistic advantage and you gain a lot more space in front of you for your evasion (or hectic contingency maneuvers) in case other threats surprise you. Staying close behind a tree, hill or other obstacle reduces your space to maneuver and increases your chance to hit something. Keep some space, retain flexibility.

This is exactly why I prefer hovering close to hill. More you have to climb to get LOS, easier you are to be spotted by something you don't know it's there. It's just as easy to duck left/right as it is forward. Even backwards dump is not that hard, especially if you use torque to turn around.

For the record, I am not saying you have to be within 10 ft of obstacle, but no reason to be 1000+ ft from it.

Edited November 1, 2022 by admiki