F16 Landing Question at Batumi air base on Caucasus MP

[Justin1Ntime]

I have been practicing landing the F16 at Batumi on the Caucasus map. If I flare (nose up) with air breaks  till I get to 100 knots then the nose falls then I hit the breaks hard to stop. I barely stop in time before I run off the run way. I mean its VERY VERY close. Buttttttttt when landing if I flair  with air breaks with my foot brakes on full I have all 3 wheels down at 126(ish) knots as the breaks force me to quit pointing my nose up a few seconds after touch down. I stop so much closer to where I need to be on this type of approach. it seems to work out way better if I just slam on my breaks when I touch down and ignore aero braking.

My question is, is Batumi runway to short for the F16 or in real life do these guys land with their foot on the breaks. It seems if I land with my foot on the breaks nose up for only a few seconds I have a great landing in DCS. If I try to use aero breaking I need a really really long runway. 

Thoughts?

[Tholozor]

What's your landing weight?

[Justin1Ntime]

empty . Nothing on the wings

[VampireNZ]

Where is your FPM in the staple during approach and during flare? Are you aligning the 2.5 deg line with the end of runway and aiming FPM at the threshold - so not extending flare/touchdown to far? Are you touching down at and holding 13 deg the whole way? Are you aware you can extend the SB to the standard 60 deg by holding the switch in the open position while gear down (so further than the 'allowed' 43 degrees to prevent hitting ground during touchdown/aerobrake). The SB opens fully again by itself once the nosewheel is on the ground.

Batumi is an 8,200ft runway, and the reqd landing distance of an empty F-16 is approx 3-4,000' (depending on alt/temp/wind) with max braking - so you should have ample space to land and stop if you are performing the approach/landing correctly.

I wouldn't count on DCS to have accurate drag simulation to effectively use aerobraking, but I have never had a problem stopping the Viper. The max nosewheel speed is around 217 knots so if you wanna gently drop it earlier and THEN get on the brakes feel free - aerobraking is just free decceleration and you SHOULD have plenty of room for it.

 

[104th_Money]

What is your approach and touchdown speed? Sounds like you are coming in too fast. Aerobraking is the standard way to slow down in the F-16. It prevents the wheel brakes from getting too hot. You need to be at least 13 deg for max aerobrake effectiveness.

[itn]

4 hours ago, VampireNZ said:

The SB opens fully again by itself once the nosewheel is on the ground.

Small correction: Speedbrakes won't open automatically from 43 to full 60 degrees. They stay in the limited 43 degrees position. However, after you have weight on nose landing gear, you can extend speedbrakes to the full 60 degrees position and they will stay fully open without having to keep the switch depressed.

[VampireNZ]

30 minutes ago, itn said:

Small correction: Speedbrakes won't open automatically from 43 to full 60 degrees. They stay in the limited 43 degrees position. However, after you have weight on nose landing gear, you can extend speedbrakes to the full 60 degrees position and they will stay fully open without having to keep the switch depressed.

Apologies - was implied you would be holding the switch open as per below....as such they will automatically sense WOW and fully deploy to 60 degrees.

4 hours ago, VampireNZ said:

you can extend the SB to the standard 60 deg by holding the switch in the open position while gear down

[Justin1Ntime]

I am between 175 and 190 touch down speed. I am aligning the 2.5 deg line with the end of runway and aiming FPM at the threshold and I am holding 13 deg the whole way I think. come to think about it, I point the nose up but not sure what degree it is. I do know many times I hit the tail on the ground trying to hold it up. I will have to pay attention to validate it is 13 though as maybe its 5 and it just seems like 13.  Being you guys confirmed the run way is long enough I just need to practice I guess and validate that 13 degrees. I watch my AI wing man stop on a dime and every time I am like WTF as I go blowing past him

[VampireNZ]

21 hours ago, Justin1Ntime said:

I am between 175 and 190 touch down speed. I am aligning the 2.5 deg line with the end of runway and aiming FPM at the threshold and I am holding 13 deg the whole way I think. come to think about it, I point the nose up but not sure what degree it is. I do know many times I hit the tail on the ground trying to hold it up. I will have to pay attention to validate it is 13 though as maybe its 5 and it just seems like 13.  Being you guys confirmed the run way is long enough I just need to practice I guess and validate that 13 degrees. I watch my AI wing man stop on a dime and every time I am like WTF as I go blowing past him

For the approach you need to place the FPM at the top of the staple in the HUD, which will give you the correct AOA and speed for approach. Close throttle across threshold and flare to place FPM at end of runway. During the flare the FPM moves down to approx the middle of the staple, and once landed you use the ladder lines on the HUD to determine your nose-up attitude, so pointing cross on the HUD (will be right up top) just around or above the 10 degree lines.

Sounds like you might be too fast on approach. Here are a few quik pics I made just now, not got my F-16 rig set up anymore so this was rough landing using desk T1600 in an empty jet at 50% fuel, but you get the idea. Very casual aerobraking (less than 10 degrees), and relaxed braking but still stopped with PLENTY of runway left.  Also FYI this was just with the standard SB position.

Stick with it! Landing the Viper is super easy with all the aids in the HUD (easiest a/c in DCS for me) if you use them correctly. 

Let me know how you get on and if this helps at all.

161 KIAS, FPM at top of staple:

Aerobraking after touchdown - nose pointing cross just below 10 degrees (Should be at 10!) No wheel braking with nose off:

Full stop after casual braking following nose touchdown at 100-ish knots - little less than half the RW left:

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by VampireNZ

[silverdevil]

@Justin1Ntime sorry late to the party. also check on AOA indicator and indexer. the computers will keep you in check, including weight i believe. it took me a long time to stop after landing. i practiced empty and then loaded (4 mk84 and fuel). i can now get it without problems. f-16 is by far the hardest of the modules to land for me. a-10 and f-18 i basically crash it into the runway and go to parking.

[Frederf]

Touchdown at 13 aoa minimum sink. If you're holding speed brake switch open it's fully open. Don't touch down with brakes held open, wait until 3 point attitude. The only difference with WOW is if they'll stay 100% open hands off.

Aerobraking is ineffective belong 10-11 degrees, keep nose up to 13. Minimum run landing is brakes firm upon landing from 2 point attitude (which won't stay 2 point for long).

[Lee1]

Use the boresight cross to get the AOA (point it at the required place on the pitch ladder), get the flightpath marker in the middle of the staple (will give a slower speed) and adjust rate of descent with small throttle movements, not the stick. 2.5 degree marker on the end of the runway should put the flightpath marker on the threashold and hold that til touchdown. Close throttle and aerobrake until the nose drops then full airbrakes and wheelbrake as required. Shouldn't be a problem with enough practice. I found it incredibly hard until I got used to getting the FPM and staple correct and unbelievably counter intuitive to add throttle to lower rate of descent. Once that was mastered, it became very easy to put it down exactly where I want. Best of luck with this fantasic module.

[Justin1Ntime]

Wow thanks for the pics and advice everybody. After a few more runs I am now able to land and have plenty of room. @VampireNZ The pics did help. There was a ton of great info in the thread. Thanks much. I agree with @silverdevil coming from the hornet where you slam it into the ground this was much more of a challenge to try to do it right. 

 

[VampireNZ]

Don't use the pointing cross to set AOA - where your nose is pointing has nothing to do with your AOA, as this is determined by the angle between your wing chord line and the relative airflow - you could be pointing straight up with your cross on 90 and still have 0 AOA if your speed is fast enough!

Just set the FPM indicator using the 'AOA indicator' staple on your HUD, and by all means use the AOA indexer lights to the left if you like, you have another AOA indicator on your ctr panel also. Just after some reference to RL Viper pilots and publications - ideally you approach with the FPM at top of staple, and as you go to idle and flare with FPM at far end of runway, FPM moves to middle of staple for touchdown. But you can approach at mid-staple if you really want to - you don't need to, but hey - see if you can scrape that exhaust can as you flare 

Also prob a bit dramatic to say "Aerobraking is ineffective below 10-11 degrees" - as you can see I held a lazy 9 degrees, barely wheelbraked, and stopped EASILY

 

8 minutes ago, Justin1Ntime said:

Wow thanks for the pics and advice everybody. After a few more runs I am now able to land and have plenty of room. @VampireNZ The pics did help. There was a ton of great info in the thread. Thanks much. I agree with @silverdevil coming from the hornet where you slam it into the ground this was much more of a challenge to try to do it right. 

 

Glad it helped . Viper really is easy-mode to land once you get the hang of it. Much more finesse than those Navy goons! 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by VampireNZ

[Justin1Ntime]

@VampireNZLove the video what a difference in landing techniques. my newest problem is keeping it straight. I use the pedals/rudder which work great at speed then I hit the nose/wheel button and 70ish and then it looks like have have been drinking since 7AM

[VampireNZ]

1 minute ago, Justin1Ntime said:

@VampireNZLove the video what a difference in landing techniques. my newest problem is keeping it straight. I use the pedals/rudder which work great at speed then I hit the nose/wheel button and 70ish and then it looks like have have been drinking since 7AM

Haha yea can be 'interesting'. If you are losing rudder authority as you slow down, try using differential braking to keep it straight initially, and just engage NWS once you are at taxi speeds.

[Justin1Ntime]

1 minute ago, VampireNZ said:

Haha yea can be 'interesting'. If you are losing rudder authority as you slow down, try using differential braking to keep it straight initially, and just engage NWS once you are at taxi speeds.

Didnt even think about that. will give it a try this PM