Heavy turbulance while flying making it impossible to fly in formation

[Loukuins]

I can't fly in formation since the last update, I put half stick on the side to stay in formation, and the turbulance start very early too.

I am the only one experiencing that ? The flight model feels wrong since the first update of the plane and I really don't enjoy flying it, I feel dissapointed...

[Bremspropeller]

5 hours ago, Loukuins said:

I am the only one experiencing that ?

Certainly not. It's overdone IMHO, and it is annoying.

[IvanK]

What exactly are we talking about here ? ......... aerodynamic Buzz/buffet as a function of AOA ?

[Bremspropeller]

The wakes in close formation requiring almost half a stick-deflection in roll to cope.

It used to be way less pronounced and two or three patches ago, the effect doubled.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[IvanK]

Ok I dont fly with wake enabled will try and have a look.

Changing from echelon through line astern and into echelon on the other side does in IRL (in almost any aeroplane) require a reasonable amount of aileron input to hold wings level in the transition as go through the wing tip vortices.

So the next question is this DCS wide or F1 specific ?

[Bremspropeller]

13 minutes ago, IvanK said:

So the next question is this DCS wide or F1 specific ?

It used to seem like in the other airplanes before that one patch that made it worse.

14 minutes ago, IvanK said:

Changing from echelon through line astern and into echelon on the other side does in IRL (in almost any aeroplane) require a reasonable amount of aileron input to hold wings level in the transition as go through the wing tip vortices.

Granted, but flying close formation on the wing now really requires you to mix in almost half a throw in roll, which I believe is a bit overblown for two similar aircraft.

 

[IvanK]

Tried F1 on the wing (echelon) of an SU27 ... no issue. You shouldn't really be flying echelon with any wing overlap anyway

Did some stuff in the line astern and transitioning with Wake Turbulence enabled, seems a little bit random to me. On some occasions not a big deal on other occasions a very large roll disturbance occurred. Be nice to be able to visualize the vortices to see whats really going on.

[Bananabrai]

@IvanK
2-ship F1 flight: the echelon F1 is being sucked towards the lead F1 way too much and from way too much distance.
Flying a proper formation (wingman aligning lead aircrafts wingtip with canopy), wingman is started to be pulled (in a turbulant way) towards the lead aircraft from a distance of 10-15m, wingtip to wingtip. In relation: an entire aicraft would fit in there, if you would fly overlaping or 0m distance wingtip to wingtip.
It is definitely too strong.

It's a lot stronger than with other aircraft, say for example 2-ship F-14 flight, F-18, -16 or other modules.

I did not test dissimilar compinations, such as F1 being lead or wingman and other aircraft is a different type.
Maybe @Bremspropeller did that some point. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Bananabrai

[Bremspropeller]

2 hours ago, Bananabrai said:

I did not test dissimilar compinations, such as F1 being lead or wingman and other aircraft is a different type.

We did that last week when checking out the police light, which reminds me of re-testing something that came to my mind.

Seemed like you didn't have an issue in the F-14 flying next to me.

[Bananabrai]

8 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

We did that last week when checking out the police light, which reminds me of re-testing something that came to my mind.

Seemed like you didn't have an issue in the F-14 flying next to me.

At least I cannot recall being sucked towards you as with the F1.

[Loukuins]

4 hours ago, Bananabrai said:

2-ship F1 flight: the echelon F1 is being sucked towards the lead F1 way too much and from way too much distance.
Flying a proper formation (wingman aligning lead aircrafts wingtip with canopy), wingman is started to be pulled (in a turbulant way) towards the lead aircraft from a distance of 10-15m, wingtip to wingtip. In relation: an entire aicraft would fit in there, if you would fly overlaping or 0m distance wingtip to wingtip.
It is definitely too strong.

It's a lot stronger than with other aircraft, say for example 2-ship F-14 flight, F-18, -16 or other modules.

I did not test dissimilar compinations, such as F1 being lead or wingman and other aircraft is a different type.
Maybe @Bremspropeller did that some point. 

Yeah that kind of issue, and also I have wing turbulance even being next to the lead and my wind not close to my leader wing, and like behind a tanker it's really hard to stay stable, compared to a 14 with fully opened wing I feel like I can't be stable at all and always correcting a randomised wing turbulance

[IvanK]

20 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Granted, but flying close formation on the wing now really requires you to mix in almost half a throw in roll, which I believe is a bit overblown for two similar aircraft

In a standard echelon position you should not require ANY aileron input. ... if you get super close with wing overlap then yes.

[IvanK]

Did some F1 on F1 close form Echelon, Line astern and transits from Echelon Left to Echelon right through close line astern.

I did not detect any "Suck in" effect in normal echelon. In transiting through the close line astern position the roll inputs were imo consistent with what I expect most of the time. Occasionally a severe wing drop occurred. Trying to figure out exactly where this occurred is problematic as it had a certain amount of randomness to it.

Transiting the line astern slightly low and around 5 aircraft lengths back the encounter with wake turbulence was gross and way overdone imo considering we are similar types and identical weights and AOA etc.

Retested with Wake turbulence off and things were to me more consistent and dare I say it felt more natural in close formation.

[Bremspropeller]

The "suck in" happens when you're really close (next to the leader's wing tip) and then going forward. You'll reach a point where you'll suddenly need much less power to maintain position. I'll see if I can possibly record a track during the next days.

 

That effect also exists when tanking (in other aircraft) where you kind of have to breach a wall of additional drag some distance behind the drogue, only to come back on power to not suddenly outpace the tanker. The position where it switches over is quite unstable.

 

[IvanK]

The "suck in" happens when you're really close (next to the leader's wing tip) and then going forward. You'll reach a point where you'll suddenly need much less power to maintain position. I'll see if I can possibly record a track during the next days.

That is unrealistic in itself.

[Loukuins]

So the issue is more like a ED issue ? Since I have way less issues in other planes, I find it weird, I had a lot of the suck in and Bremspropeller described my other issue nicely too

[grim_reaper68]

Hi. When you're close to a tanker, you will have the same effect. 

[Bremspropeller]

I tried to do some quick & dirty test, flying to several different positions and showing the stick-deflection.

The "suck in" is noticeable during the last couple of seconds where going fwd of some point, holding position required throttling back a bit.

track

Probably not the cleanest test-piloting at work here but the stick-deflection vs position and the "suck in" should be evident.

 

Edit: Nevermind, track was corrupted. I'll have to do it again.

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Aernov]

Instability starts to make formation flight almost impossible with intermittent wing drops from depicted distance (flight at 17 000 ft, 0.7 M, about 8 kts headwind). Moving forward doesn't change much, only increasing distance helps.

[Yo-Yo]

I think that the issue (if it is present) caused by the way F1 uses the velocity field, because aircraft made by ED never encounter this issue.
Wingman position on the picture is way far from the wake.


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