investigating MAV in VIS-HMCS mode unusable with offbore angles

[enyak]

The AGM-65 cannot be utilized with offbore angles other than what is originally within the MAV-seeker window when in VIS-HMCS mode.

Steps:
1. Select AGM-65H (also other models) on the SMS page and set A/G->VIS
2. SOI moves to HUD
3. Long-press TMS-Up to transfer SOI from HUD to HMCS
4. HMCS TD-Box appears. TMS-Up to designate VIS-HMCS-SPI to a target (or ground) to your right 90° offbore (ie. popup SA-6). SOI is automatically transferred to WPN-MAV
5. MAV slews towards TD-Box SPI but hits gimbal limit and stops movement
6. Move AC nose towards designated VIS-HMCS-SPI
7. MAV does not move towards SPI even though now within MAV gimbal limits
8. MAV does not present HOTAS command to slave towards SPI that is now within reach. TMS-Down with SOI on WPN-MAV resets entire SPI and starts the process anew.

Expectation:
MAV should either automatically slave towards VIS-SPI when able due to AC rotation or implement TMS-Down to re-slave towards VIS-SPI.

Demo:
See attached track on Caucasus with AGM-65H.

F16_MAV_VIS_HMCS2.trk

Edited November 26, 2022 by enyak

[Lord Vader]

Hi @enyak

In your track when you're looking so far aside, you're exceeding the weapon gimbal limits (Ver: +30º/-54º and Hor: +42º) and then the seeker itself (Wide FOV: 30º, Narrow FOV: 15º). Remember, this is not an INS cueing mode, it's an optical (visual) mode. When the HMCS sends SPI, it's like a snapshot of the area you want to attack. If the seeker isn't within optical cue limitation, it will only move to the maximum gimbal limit. And that's what you're seeing.

 

[enyak]

Steps 1-5 are correct as is.

Step 7 and 8 are the problem after the aircraft turns towards the designated SPI in step 6. There is no automatic slewing action from the MAV and no way to command the MAV to slew towards the SPI which is now in full view. TMS-Down on WPN-SOI should command slave-to-SPI but does completely cancel and reset the SPI.

[_SteelFalcon_]

8 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Hi @enyak

In your track when you're looking so far aside, you're exceeding the weapon gimbal limits (Ver: +30º/-54º and Hor: +42º) and then the seeker itself (Wide FOV: 30º, Narrow FOV: 15º). Remember, this is not an INS cueing mode, it's an optical (visual) mode. When the HMCS sends SPI, it's like a snapshot of the area you want to attack. If the seeker isn't within optical cue limitation, it will only move to the maximum gimbal limit. And that's what you're seeing.

 

But why would the Mav not try to line up with the TD box as soon as it gets within the seekers gimbal limit?
M3 manual on page 84/85 describes the workflow in detail, and nowhere does it say that the target must be within seeker FOV for a designation with the HMCS in EO VIS.

Edited November 28, 2022 by _SteelFalcon_

[Lord Vader]

9 hours ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

But why would the Mav not try to line up with the TD box as soon as it gets within the seekers gimbal limit?
M3 manual on page 84/85 describes the workflow in detail, and nowhere does it say that the target must be within seeker FOV for a designation with the HMCS in EO VIS.

 

It also doesn't say it can be 90º. As always, we need documented evidence the seeker works the ways you describe.

You are referring to a feature possible in PRE mode, where beyond gimbal limits the TPOD (or STPT) will supply SPI for the Mav to cue to. 

In any case, this will be mentioned to the team and if a correction is needed, it will be done. 

[BIGNEWY]

Please PM any public evidence to support the bug report. 

thanks

[_SteelFalcon_]

3 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please PM any public evidence to support the bug report. 

thanks

A Spi is a Spi, so the missile should try to acquire its location once designated. how else would that feature work? "yes you can designate with the helmet, but only if it is within MAV seeker FOV and no, we dont give you any visual info in the helmet of where its limits are." really? It would make the feature obsolete and possibly risky if the missile would not try to acquire the SPI location designated by helmet in EO VIS.
The pilot sees a threat off his 3/9, designates it in EO VIS and when turning towards the TD box, the missile doesnt slew there because at the time of designation the Target wasn't within the MAV seeker limits?

i am not referring to PRE, i am referring to EO VIS, which can be found in the M3 under the HMCS section.

Edited November 29, 2022 by _SteelFalcon_

[Moonshine]

 

1 hour ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

A Spi is a Spi, so the missile should try to acquire its location once designated. how else would that feature work? "yes you can designate with the helmet, but only if it is within MAV seeker FOV and no, we dont give you any visual info in the helmet of where its limits are." really? It would make the feature obsolete and possibly risky if the missile would not try to acquire the SPI location designated by helmet in EO VIS.
The pilot sees a threat off his 3/9, designates it in EO VIS and when turning towards the TD box, the missile doesnt slew there because at the time of designation the Target wasn't within the MAV seeker limits?

i am not referring to PRE, i am referring to EO VIS, which can be found in the M3 under the HMCS section.

 

this. SPI is SPI, no matter how the SPI was set.
the mav does not know the difference between VIS and PRE, these modes are only methods to set the SPI, has nothing to do with the mav itself. after setting the SPI, the mav will then slew to that SPI and thats it. so yes, if the mav slews to the SPI in PRE as the plane starts turning towards it, so should it in VIS
the only mode you have seekerhead-limits is BORE as there you set the SPI with the mav itself using the HUD Boresight cross or the mav WPN page

 

and if it would really be limited by seekerhead FOV, then it would even have to take into account which wingstation is used (left or right). makes absolutely no sense at all

Edited November 29, 2022 by Moonshine

[BIGNEWY]

We understand how you are interpreting it, it would seem common sense, however we need to be sure before we commit dev time to it, for now we are looking for clarification from other sources.

thanks

[enyak]

WIthout the capability to cue the MAV to the SPI (either automatically or by HOTAS control) the MAV in VIS-HMCS mode is unusable and VIS-HMCS should be removed entirely for WPN-MAV.

Edited November 29, 2022 by enyak

[TEOMOOSE]

On 11/29/2022 at 6:36 AM, enyak said:

WIthout the capability to cue the MAV to the SPI (either automatically or by HOTAS control) the MAV in VIS-HMCS mode is unusable and VIS-HMCS should be removed entirely for WPN-MAV.

 

Theres no need to suggest to remove anything from it. Its part of the system and that is how it works. Like many have suggested you are most likely doing it wrong. The missiles have an xx field of view. Commonly referred to as Line of Sight. You can designate and ground stabilize the TD box however that dosent mean your maverick seeker can physically slew to that spot. The manual suggest, that you make WPN page soi and slew seeker over target. THe VIS mode is designed to cue sensors - TGP - on close proximity to the target area in a Off Boresight designation. Meaning, in a perfect world you would fly the 3/9 line in relation to the target. Therefore its impossible for the mav seeker to see what you tried to lock on. I highly recommend that you start using tgp mark points, from there all works in PRE mode and in auto handoff. All weapon releases is done through the tgp. So keep practicing and get better. Just because its sucks for you at moment it doesn't mean it needs to be removed.

Edited December 15, 2022 by TEOMOOSE

[Deano87]

@TEOMOOSE

Did you read the original post?

[Moonshine]

i bet he didnt. but comments like these ruin all the work and research people have done. at the very least read the original post before jumping in with stuff like that...

[_SteelFalcon_]

1 hour ago, TEOMOOSE said:

Theres no need to suggest to remove anything from it. Its part of the system and that is how it works. Like many have suggested you are most likely doing it wrong. The missiles have an xx field of view. Commonly referred to as Line of Sight. You can designate and ground stabilize the TD box however that dosent mean your maverick seeker can physically slew to that spot. The manual suggest, that you make WPN page soi and slew seeker over target. THe VIS mode is designed to cue sensors - TGP - on close proximity to the target area in a Off Boresight designation. Meaning, in a perfect world you would fly the 3/9 line in relation to the target. Therefore its impossible for the mav seeker to see what you tried to lock on. I highly recommend that you start using tgp mark points, from there all works in PRE mode and in auto handoff. All weapon releases is done through the tgp. So keep practicing and get better. Just because its sucks for you at moment it doesn't mean it needs to be removed.

 

Please read the posts first before such comments… all the evidence is there and describes the currently questionable implementation.

[TEOMOOSE]

20 hours ago, Deano87 said:

@TEOMOOSE

Did you read the original post?

 

20 hours ago, Moonshine said:

i bet he didnt. but comments like these ruin all the work and research people have done. at the very least read the original post before jumping in with stuff like that...

 

19 hours ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

Please read the posts first before such comments… all the evidence is there and describes the currently questionable implementation.

I have no doubts! Im sure if you read my post again. You realize that it has no intention to criticize what the original poster said, instead. I was given a "tactic" that works really well in the sim. (it wont work the way the A10C does, but i do wish im wrong though)

Furthermore i could not find any information about to ability to slew the maverick seeker to the TD box. M3 manual clearly says: (in short) After the TD box, move SOI to WPn page, verify target or slew maverick by cursor/enabled switch to align with the target then TMS forward to lock. 

If you you do have evidence that suggests otherwise i would like to see it myself as well.

[_SteelFalcon_]

27 minutes ago, TEOMOOSE said:

 

 

I have no doubts! Im sure if you read my post again. You realize that it has no intention to criticize what the original poster said, instead. I was given a "tactic" that works really well in the sim. (it wont work the way the A10C does, but i do wish im wrong though)

Furthermore i could not find any information about to ability to slew the maverick seeker to the TD box. M3 manual clearly says: (in short) After the TD box, move SOI to WPn page, verify target or slew maverick by cursor/enabled switch to align with the target then TMS forward to lock. 

If you you do have evidence that suggests otherwise i would like to see it myself as well.

Without directly quoting a manual, please go find the m3 or another specific one just before year 2000 and read carefully the section about vis submode. Especially the very first line about what sensor is initialized as SOI and where the Weapon seeker is slaved to. This should answer that pretty clearly.

Talk here is not about us expecting the mav actually Locking the target 90° off bore. What we expect the mav to do is to slew to the designated location once the target box gets within seeker FOV, which it currently does not do in vis submode but somehow does in PRE.

Edited December 16, 2022 by _SteelFalcon_