Ground attack loadouts discussion

[Aussie_Mantis]

11 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

We'd have to break down missions and percentages flown by the USAF in country, but I believe the Huns were very heavily used for CAS and for relatively long, once it was clear their gig wouldn't be up north. The Phantoms mostly flew out of Thailand or did have special roles down south. There might have been a few outfits that concentrated on CAS, but I think that was only late/ later in the war.

past '68-'69 most CAS units in general were flying the F-4. The F-100D had been retired since, I believe. 

[Bremspropeller]

1 minute ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

past '68-'69 most CAS units in general were flying the F-4. The F-100D had been retired since, I believe. 

Were there many specific CAS outfits left by that time? Talking about specific F-4 CAS units. Other than Da Nang and Tan Son Nhut, there weren't any USAF F-4 units in-country (I could be wrong, though). IIRC Tuy Hoa and Bien Hoa were both Hun-heavy bases.

I think the Huns going out was a result of the ongoing slowing down of the conflict at this same time-frame. Given the Marines on Da Nang and the Navy on Dixie Station and with lots of firepower still in place in Thailand, I think there weren't that many CAS units until the war sped up again in 1972. By that time, the A-7D also was a thing.

[NoodI]

How good was the walleye on the f-4e and how many lbs of explosive was it?

Edited January 1, 2023 by NoodI

[Vampyre]

1 hour ago, NoodI said:

How good was the walleye on the f-4e and how many lbs of explosive was it?

 

Walleye is a Navy/Marine weapon. I have seen no evidence of the F-4E ever carrying the weapon or it being listed in the USAF manuals for the F-4E. The photos you have posted of the USAF planes with the walleye are F-4D's one of which is definitely a weapons school aircraft and the other has a test weapon fitted. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say the Walleye was evaluated by the Air Force but not adopted by the service. The Air Force used the GBU-8, GBU-9 and GBU-15 TV guided weapons instead.

[upyr1]

On 12/10/2022 at 12:52 AM, Elf1606688794 said:

 

On 12/9/2022 at 11:38 PM, NoodI said:

Also did the F-4E carry cbus?

I'm not sure what that is, can you offer a further explanation?

Cbu= Cluster bombs

[G.J.S]

22 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Cbu= Cluster bombs

CBU-52 & 71. In the US arsenal.

[Elf1606688794]

5 hours ago, upyr1 said:

Cbu= Cluster bombs

Usually such things are abbreviated as CBU and when the OP called them Cbus it threw me off.

5 hours ago, G.J.S said:

CBU-52 & 71. In the US arsenal.

Also SUU-30.

[upyr1]

On 12/10/2022 at 12:52 AM, Elf1606688794 said:

The Phantom also carried Blu-27's (napalm) although I never loaded any. 

I'd love to see napalm added to DCS. Su-27 Flanker had ZAB incendiary bombs  

[Elf1606688794]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

I'd love to see napalm added to DCS. Su-27 Flanker had ZAB incendiary bombs  

Snake and Nape. 

[Gambit21]

On 12/22/2022 at 3:12 AM, Bremspropeller said:

Were there many specific CAS outfits left by that time? Talking about specific F-4 CAS units.

Not that I'm aware of, Air Force anyway. I could be wrong as well.

 

A Marine squadron would by definition be a basically a CAS unit yes?

I'm asking. 

 

 

[Bremspropeller]

5 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

A Marine squadron would by definition be a basically a CAS unit yes?

I'd say so, yeah. For the most part anyway. They were also transitioning towards F-4s (away from Crusaders) during that rough period.

They'd have all-weather/ night capability with the A-6 and lighter attack capability with the A-4.

[Bremspropeller]

Anybody know if those Moody jets are DMAS birds?

 

[Vampyre]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

Anybody know if those Moody jets are DMAS birds?

 

They are not. DMAS was used by the 3rd TFW at Clark AB in Philippines, 4th TFW at Seymore Johnson NC, 37th TFW (also numbered as 35th TFW for a short time) at George AFB CA, 52nd TFW at Spangdahlem AB Germany, the 924th TFG at Bergstrom AFB TX, 3246th Test Wing at Eglin AFB FL, 57th Fighter Weapons Wing at Nellis AFB NV, and the South Korean 17th TFW in Chongju RoK. A few were also used in various test and evaluation units as well.

The main external tell for a DMAS F-4E is the antenna fit along the spine of the aircraft. The most noticeable of these are the black trapezoidal shaped antenna radome covering the LORAN-C antenna located just behind the TACAN blade antenna. In this case the wing assigned is the tell as the spine antenna fit cannot be seen. DMAS jets were never assigned to the 347th TFW at Moody AFB.

[Bremspropeller]

Good to know, thanks Vampyre!

So the Mavs aren't DMAS-dependant

 

BTW: Was that LORAN-C antenna an addendum and/ or scale-down of those towel-rack antennas onthe F-4D?

Edited January 6, 2023 by Bremspropeller

[LanceCriminal86]

First thing I look for is APS-107 antenna on the tail, and serial number. If I see 71- or higher I know it's a TISEO/later jet and I leave it alone for now because I'm trying to focus on the earlier jets. A portion of the early Es and then the ones made after '68 lack the APS-107 antenna but for me it's a quick indicator, and as said there are some other tail and antenna differences that the later TISEO/DMAS equipped jets had.

 

[Vampyre]

54 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Good to know, thanks Vampyre!

So the Mavs aren't DMAS-dependant

 

BTW: Was that LORAN-C antenna an addendum and/ or scale-down of those towel-rack antennas onthe F-4D?

 

The "Towel Rack" Loran antenna was LORAN D. It was added to 72 F-4D's from production blocks 32 and 33 under the Pave Phantom program. The ARN-92 Loran was tied to a precision intervalometer that was required for precision navigation at night. In Vietnam these jets were mainly used over the Ho Chi Minh trail for delivering "Igloo White" sensors by the 8th and 432nd TFW's. After the war they were kept on in the 52nd TFW, 301st TFW and 924th TFG with one squadron each. They were all out of service by the mid 80's.

[Vampyre]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

So the Mavs aren't DMAS-dependant

Oh, and Maverick is a relatively simple point, lock and shoot weapon. the A-10A is testament to that. It was also used on F-4D's without the more advanced navigation suites like the LORAN equipped birds.

[Stackup]

1 hour ago, Vampyre said:

Oh, and Maverick is a relatively simple point, lock and shoot weapon. the A-10A is testament to that. It was also used on F-4D's without the more advanced navigation suites like the LORAN equipped birds.

How does the Maverick work on the F-4?  Does the WSO get a screen to lock the target and then the pilot shoots?

[WinterH]

7 hours ago, Stackup said:

How does the Maverick work on the F-4?  Does the WSO get a screen to lock the target and then the pilot shoots?

I remember reading that Maverick is unique in that both pilot and WSO can see the feed and control the weapon in F-4E, unlike most other air to ground weapons in it. Could be something version dependent, but I think both our versions are "new" enough for that.

 

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

So the Mavs aren't DMAS-dependant

I think the only DMAS unique weapon is GBU-15, and even then that wasn't at first available on DMAS birds right away, was more in mid 80s. Aside from that of course, there'll be the two different targeting pods: Pave Spike that goes to Sparrow recess for early bird, and the rather gigantic Pave Tack that goes under the centreline for DMAS bird. Rest of the weapons, at least the air to ground part, seems mostly equal between the two variants. I'd wager air to air missiles will also be the same types, but we'll see that I guess. 

[Vampyre]

9 hours ago, Stackup said:

How does the Maverick work on the F-4?  Does the WSO get a screen to lock the target and then the pilot shoots?

 Maverick uses the RADAR display for the image. According to the TO 1F4E-34-1-1 the missile can be locked and launched from either the front or rear cockpits but it will require the pilot to turn master ARM on.

[Get_Lo]

What are the chances anyone can tell me a little about this picture?


Unless im horribly mistaken that is an AGM-130 being loaded onto an F4 and photograph is dated middle of 1990
Ive seen references to the AGM-130 in this 1984 weapon's file but apart from that any information is so scarce!  any information will be appreciated. 


(Cover page showing it is non-restricted info)

Edited January 10, 2023 by Get_Lo

[G.J.S]

1 hour ago, Get_Lo said:

What are the chances anyone can tell me a little about this picture?


Unless im horribly mistaken that is an AGM-130 being loaded onto an F4 and photograph is dated middle of 1990
Ive seen references to the AGM-130 in this 1984 weapon's file but apart from that any information is so scarce!  any information will be appreciated. 


(Cover page showing it is non-restricted info)

 

Certainly is a AGM-130, utilising the short chord GBU-15. Being mid ‘90’s and due to the colouring, it’s likely a test round being used before being declared operational (late ‘90’s).

[grant977]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:56 AM, Aussie_Mantis said:

Also, for OP @NoodI, a full, comprehensive list of everything I know for A2G and A2A that was ever put on a USAF F-4E at any point:
 

Air to Air Missiles

 

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• AIM-9B/J/N/P/P-1/P-2/P-3/P-4/P-5 (4 on Aero-3/B Launcher (Peltier Electric Cooling) with choice between 1.75-in, 3-in and double 3-in spacers)
• AIM-9L/M (4 on LAU-105 (Nitrogen/Argon cooling) w/ double 3-inch spacers)
• AIM-7E/E-2/E-3/E-4/F/M/P in sparrow recesses + also 2 on inboard hardpoints if sidewinders forfeited and left at base

Iron Bombs

 

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• Mk 81 250lbs LDGP Bomb (max load 24)
• Mk 82 500lbs LDGP Bomb (max load 24)
• Mk 83 1000lbs LDGP Bomb (max load 13, 2-3-3-3-2)
• Mk 84 2000lbs LDGP Bomb (max load 3, 1-0-1-0-1)
• M118 3000lbs demo bomb (max load 1, 0-0-1-0-0)
• M117GP 750lbs demo bomb (allegedly only up to 17 carried but some anecdotal sources suggest up to 19 possible if MTOW restrictions waived & carried in 4-3-5-3-4 configuration)
• M117R Retarded Bomb (only up to 16 due to new tail) 
• M117D Destructor Bomb (M117 with a magnetic fuze)
• Mk 81/82 Snakeeye Retarded Bombs (up to 24)
• Mk 82/BSU-49/B (AIR) air-inflatable parachute retarded bomb (up to 24)
• Mk 84/BSU-50/B air-inflated parachute retarded bomb
• Mk 13 1000lbs Bomb (UK) (max load 13, only loaded as practice for NATO shenanigans)
• 500lbs H.E. M.C. Mk II (UK) (Surplus) (Max load 13, only loaded as practice for NATO shenanigans)
• Mk. N1 540lbs UK GP Bombs (max load 24, only loaded as practice for NATO shenanigans)
• Matra Durandal 250-500kg anti-runway bombs
• Matra/SAMP 250/400kg bombs- Inboard wing stations (2,8) only on TER-9A triple ejector racks. Unusual to see in wild on account of being French and therefore not particularly standard issue. Unlike Durandal the USAF never procured these bombs and its inclusion in the manual is likely only for use in the case of a war (West German Luftwaffe had 250kg Matra bombs, as did France obviously, as well as a multitude of other nations in NATO with French hardware i.e. Mirages)
• Mk 81 Mk 82/Mk 83/Mk 84/M117GP/M118 GP w/ M1A1 extended fuze (bursts above ground)
• YOM-4M/A (single carriage on centerline, requires specialized loading equipment + RATO boosters due to weight & girth. Makes loud, high-pitched demoralizing "scream" upon dropping, and causes massive tremors and localized terrain deformation upon impact. Heaviest unguided bomb ever deployed.)

Guided Munitions

 

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• AGM-65 Mavericks A through D (confirmed w/ T.O. 1F-4E-1 1986 w/ 1991 corrections
• AGM-64 Hornet AGM (tested on F-4D, never used in service)
• AGM-62 Walleye I, Walleye I-ER, Walleye-II (not listed in manual, seen at China Lake and in IAF service)
• AGM-12B Bullpup (500lbs warhead)
• AGM-12C Bullpup (1000lbs warhead)
• GBU-8 HOBOS 2000lbs TV-guided bomb
• GBU-9 HOBOS 3000lbs TV-guided bomb
• GBU-15 TV-guided bomb
• GBU-15(V)1 Extended Range TV-guided Bomb (has bigger wings)
• GBU-10 2000lbs Paveway II LGB
• GBU-12 500lbs Paveway II LGB
• GBU-24 Paveway III LGB
• GBU-11A/B 3000lbs LGB
• BOLT-117 LGB from Texas Instruments (legend has it that they duct-taped a calculator to the bomb as the guidance assembly)
• AGM-130 (China Lake tests? Same thing as the GBU-15 but with rocket booster so it wouldn't make sense if the F-4E couldn't theoretically carry it)

Cluster Munitions

 

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• Mk.20 Rockeye/CBU-100 (same thing, just different designations- 500lbs bomb w/ ~250 Mk 118 HEAT Anti-Tank bomblets)
• CBU-24/49/52/58/71 (800lbs bomb w/ ~670 HE bomblets, up to 15 in 3-2-5-2-3, allegedly able to carry 3-3-5-3-3 for 17)
• CBU-89/B GATOR Mine Dispenser w/ 72 AT & 22 AP mines
• CBU-12 (really old 500lbs cluster bomb, I don't know what's in it)
• BL-755/IBL-755/RBL-755 Cluster Bomb (Bri'ish 600lbs Cluster bomb with 147 cluster bomblets. IBL-755 made the cluster bomblets have parachutes. RBL-755 takes standard BL-755s and gives them radar altimeters so they always go off at the right altitude. In manual for F-4E, likely would only be loaded during wartime if CBU-100 production couldn't catch up with use and had to rely on British production. Maximum 6 with 2 on each inboard and 2 on centerline.)
• Presumably CBU-87 (GATOR = CBU-87)
• CBU-7/30/38 (really old CBU units, can load up to 18)
• MJU-1 Chaff Bomb
• M112 Leaflet Bombs (Contains toilet paper donations for Viet Cong, presumably ~500lbs weight class. Allegedly once dropped while filled with actual toilet paper.)

Napalm and other incendiaries 

 

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• BLU-1 Napalm (750lbs)
• BLU-10B Napalm (250lbs) 
• BLU-32 Napalm (500lbs)
• BLU-27 Napalm (welded version of BLU-1)
• BLU-10S Napalm (440lbs)
• BLU-10Sip Napalm (same thing as BLU-10S, I don't know what the difference is but I think it's something to do with the firestarter compound)
• M36E2 incendiary cluster bomb (CBU-24 filled with napalm cluster bomblets)
• Mark 1 Mod 0 Pilot/Crew Flammable Gas Dispenser (mounted in both cockpit on top of seat, required pilot to manually open canopy, shift position on seat with arse end pointed upwards and use cigarette lighter to function. Extremely dangerous to aircrew; rarely used except by the most daring aces during sustained combat operations in barracks).

Rockets

 

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• LAU-10 pod w/ 4 Zuni in HE-FRAG, AT/AP, can be loaded singly or on MER/TER for 3 per pylon
• LAU-3 pod w/ 19 FFAR in HE-FRAG, WP, HEAT, can be loaded singly or on MER/TER for 3 per pylon, maximum load 
• LAU-68 pod w/ 7 Hydra 80mm Rockets (1-2 per pylon, only on inboard stations. Maximum load 4.)
• Matra Type 155 Rocket Pod (reusable) w/ 18 68mm SNEB Rockets (comes in HE-FRAG, WP, HEAT, can be loaded singly or on MER/TER for 3 per pylon, maximum load 13 in 2-3-3-3-2 configuration)
• Matra Type 116M Rocket Pod (disposable) w/ 19 68mm SNEB Rockets (same as above, maximum 13 in 2-3-3-3-2 configuration)

Anti-Radiation Missiles

 

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• AGM-45 SHRIKE ARM A-1/B-1 through A-1/B-10 (Number = different seeker, either targets different bands or improves on prior seekers. A/B = different rocket motor. Shrike is notoriously horrible and would suck since you have a +/- 3 degree tolerance for launch and it needs to aim straight at the target.)
• AGM-87 STANDARD ARM (Israeli only possibly??? but I think the US could do it too...?)
• F-4Gs carried AGM-88 HARM, I'm not sure if regular F-4Es could carry it but if they tested HARMs on an F-4E I wouldn't be too surprised.
• AGM-76 Falcon ARM (AIM-26 FALCON ARM conversion, never put into service)

Special Munitions

 

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• B43 Nuclear bomb (up to 3 on inboard and centerline)
• B57 Nuclear bomb (same as above)
• B61 Nuclear bomb (same as above)
• BLU-52/B and BLU-52A/B Sarin Gas bomb w/ CS-1 Gas (BLU-1s filled with Sarin)
• MC-1 Sarin Gas Bomb w/ CS-1 Gas (M117s filled with Sarin)
• AN/ALD-35TR/U-CT(ION) Special Effects Munition Dispenser, also trialled and bolted just above seat, filled with noxious liquid aerosol. Development closely tied to Mk 1 Mod. 0 PCFGD.

Targeting Pods

 

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• AN/AVQ-10 Pave Knife targeting pod (inboard stations #2 and #8)
• AN/AVQ-23 Pave Spike (Fore port-side sparrow station i.e. Station #4)
• AN/AVQ-26 Pave Tack (requires adapter, mounts on centerline)
• Some sort of handheld laser designator allegedly held by Rear Seat Pilot/Bear to guide bombs onto target (Vietnam Era, anecdotal)
• AN/ASX-1 TISEO TV sight installed above port-side Inboard Hardpoint (hardpoint #2), standard on all F-4Es past last 10 examples of Block 48, never retrofitted onto anything earlier
• AN/AXQ-14 ADL Pod (provides datalink to TV-guided GBU-15, mounts on centerline and on inboard hardpoints)
• Mark 1 Mod 0 Electro-Optical Bio-Mechanical Targeting System (standard issue, 2-4 carried on aircraft within cockpit spot-welded to Pilot Skull)

Gun Pods

 

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• SUU-16/A and SUU-23/A 20mm Vulcan/GAU-4 gun pod (Carries 3 in manual on outboard/centerline, photographs show plane carrying 5)
• GPU-5/A PAVE CLAW 30mm GAU-13 gun pod (carries 1 on centerline, photographs show plane carrying 2 by putting them on inboard hardpoints)
• Presumably SUU-11/A/B/C 7.62mm Minigun pods (would carry up to 21 by putting them on TER/MER on every hard point like that one F-4D)
• Mk 4 USN Gun Pods (alleged Air Force use from USN/USMC Phantom stocks in Vietnam, up to 3 just like SUU-16/23 but can only mount 3 because it's too big for the inboards)

ECM Pods & Countermeasure Dispensers

 

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• AN/ALQ-71, AN/ALQ-72, AN/ALQ-87,  pods either on inboard hardpoints 2/8 or inboard sparrow nacelles stations 4/6
• AN/ALQ-101, AN/ALQ-119, AN/ALQ-131 ECM on either inboard hardpoints 2/8 or port sparrow nacelle station 4, cannot be mounted on station 6 due to clearance issues with the landing gear doors
• AN/ALE-38 Chaff dispensers
• AN/ALE-40s on the inboard hardpoints obviously, 2 per inboard pylon
• AN/ALE-2 & AN/ALQ 176(V) Combined Chaff Dispenser & Radar Jammer
• AN/ALQ-188 ECM Pods on inboard hardpoints

Fuel Tanks

 

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• 600 gal. Royal Jet Centerline Drop Tank. Requires AERO-27/A hardpoint to work. Hardpoint does not come off jet when tank dropped.
• 600 gal. High Performance Centerline Drop Tank. Requires AERO-27/A Hardpoint to work. Hardpoint does not come off jet when tank dropped.
• 370 gal Sargeant Fletcher tanks on wings, had hardpoints embedded into tank so that it would fall clean off. Favoured drop tank for all F-4 pilots since the beginning due to 3 major reasons:

1. not taking up space on centerline often used for bombs, gun pods etc
2. As it turns out the F-4 maneuvers better if you don't have bombs on the outboard hardpoints and instead shove them on the inboard ones, ergo, put what you're going to drop before combat on the outboards so you maneuver better post-dropping.
3. SPECULATORY: The 600gal tank is ugly. Allegations persist of its mother's identity (suspected to be a promiscuous hamster) and its father's mysterious odor (suspected to be elderberry liquor). Pilots who see the 600gal tank in the wild are advised to utilize the Mark 1 Mod 0 PCFGD (as described in incendiaries section) and release noxious flammable gas in its general direction to drive it off.

 

Conclusions

Thanks to being as big as a flying fortress and being pretty tall, if it could attach to a NATO standard hardpoint, it could probably be strapped on somehow to an F-4E.

The Israelis, Greeks, Turks and South Koreans put some funky new weapons on their F-4Es. The F-4EJ and EJ Kai do not exist because I said so, and I am the Most Trustworthy Source In The World (real). F-4Es in Iran carry funky Iranian weaponry like M117s mounted on MIM-23 HAWK and AIM-54 PHOENIX booster assemblies, funky laser-guided rocket bombs and even AGM-65 Maverick/GBU-12 Paveway seeker heads mounted on HAWK/Phoenix boosters. Allegedly capable of carrying Soviet weaponry but I've yet to see anything proving that to be the case.

From what I know nobody and certainly no multi-billion-dollar-net-worth corporation has yet developed a toilet, dog, or any other unusual, funny and quirky Comedic Ordnance to be dropped from an F-4, apart from aforementioned Leaflet bomb allegedly filled with toilet paper. I have added notes and comedic weapons/ordnance as I am a bored individual.

 

Absolutely F….ing gold. With the little Easter eggs added in for good effect.

[SgtPappy]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:56 AM, Aussie_Mantis said:

Also, for OP @NoodI, a full, comprehensive list of everything I know for A2G and A2A that was ever put on a USAF F-4E at any point:
 

Air to Air Missiles

  Reveal hidden contents

• AIM-9B/J/N/P/P-1/P-2/P-3/P-4/P-5 (4 on Aero-3/B Launcher (Peltier Electric Cooling) with choice between 1.75-in, 3-in and double 3-in spacers)
• AIM-9L/M (4 on LAU-105 (Nitrogen/Argon cooling) w/ double 3-inch spacers)
• AIM-7E/E-2/E-3/E-4/F/M/P in sparrow recesses + also 2 on inboard hardpoints if sidewinders forfeited and left at base

 

 

Being the expert that you are in munitions, I noticed that the TO 1F-4E-1 states that the max symmetric G's you can pull while carrying AIM-9E/J is only 6.5 G. But the missiles definitely pull way more than that in flight.

Do you know why this is so low? Is it an issue with the pylons or is 6.5 G the max G you can pull while firing the missile (since the max G load to fire does not seem to be stated in the -1)? I'm hoping I didn't miss something in the manual.

[G.J.S]

16 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

Being the expert that you are in munitions, I noticed that the TO 1F-4E-1 states that the max symmetric G's you can pull while carrying AIM-9E/J is only 6.5 G. But the missiles definitely pull way more than that in flight.

Do you know why this is so low? Is it an issue with the pylons or is 6.5 G the max G you can pull while firing the missile (since the max G load to fire does not seem to be stated in the -1)? I'm hoping I didn't miss something in the manual.

It will be at the point of firing, more than that may cause missile fin impact to the rail (the aft fins on the winder versus the tip of the rail) if higher G is in effect at launch. It’s just to guarantee that it will leave the rail as god intended, after it’s clear it can rack up whatever it needs to.