Trouble learning avionics

[Airflow]

Hi all! I seem to be able to fly well in DCS, but still haven't managed to learn any modern plane's avionics reasonably well.

Background:

I've got some experience in flight sims. My most extensive was F-22 TAW - it's got simplistic aerodynamics, but the avionics part is delicious. Still, the game just feels too easy, the plane's too overpowered, and the flying part is abstracted away too much. I've tried to upgrade to LOMAC and then to DCS, but it's been challenging. Maybe I've been spoiled by TAW with its seemingly-perfect UX.

I just can't seem to understand the avionics of any aircraft in DCS. Navigation, most of all, followed by weapon targeting and launch. The training missions seem to assume I know a lot, and teach me on a very specific scenario, but then I can't use it even in the next training mission.
So far I've tried the F/A-18 and the Harrier (my favorite) as combat planes. Got to some very basics like dropping bombs with CCIP, but I still can't get reasonable results with missiles.

My airmanship appears sufficient for DCS physics. I tried taking off with and landing all of the DCS planes during the trial, and got most of them on the first attempt. Even got carrier landings done on the F-14 on the 2nd pass without crashes, first on the F-18. Aerofly FS was the sweet spot for me for a while - no avionics, but realistic flight models; however, without combat, it's not fun enough. Flaming Cliffs was okay, I could even shoot there (yay!), but the avionics are so ridiculous that I'd rather play TAW again.

I tried to do a realistic progression in DCS: from basic pistons, to advanced trainers (L-39), to lead-in (Hawk), to light fighter (F-5E)... Didn't work out - most of the skills weren't transferable. I have limited time, unfortunately, not retired or anywhere near that yet.

Questions:

 - Is there any jet airplane in DCS that has markedly easier-to-learn avionics than the rest? Either simpler, or more intuitive, or a great manual.

 - Should I try a survey-sim style progression - try to learn a simpler plane first, then more complex ones? Or put all my efforts into the F-18 or whatever I want to keep flying?

 - If I choose anything other than the F-18 as my primary aircraft, will that make the missions/campaigns more difficult, due to lower performance, or is it a non-issue?

Edited December 15, 2022 by Airflow

[razo+r]

1) generally, the older the airframe the easier the systems are. Warbirds with basically no systems up to the first jets with one or two "systems" up to the F-18 with a lot of integrated stuff. 

Also, the older the Module for DCS, the more likely you'll see a completed manual. 

2) Depends on you. If you think you have too little time to progress from one to another, you can start at the most complex one.  A simpler aircraft will teach you how to fly and different tactics, but it will not teach you how to use other aircrafts avionics. Like from F-5 with only a simple radar, Sidewinders and unguided munition, it will not teach you how to employ the F-18s avionics and guided munition. Thats where you basically would have to start from almost 0.

Starting from simpler aircraft can be helpful though. But you need to make sure you dont switch between the different ideologies (western ideology vs eastern/soviet ideology). It tends to make things more complicated. 

3) Offline / single player missions are usually adjusted to the aircraft you are flying. Though in older aircraft without guided munitions, it may pose a bigger challenge than with newer aircraft that have access to "smart" weapons. 

Online though, thats totally different. You may find scenarios for a specific planeset, or you find sandbox missions in which older aircraft have it more difficult. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by razo+r

[SharpeXB]

Welcome to DCS! There is little value in learning a trainer aircraft, the real world reasons why these exist aren’t relevant in a game. It just means learning things again when you go to another module. So if you’re interested in an F-18 then just do that. Progress through the manual and training missions at you own pace. If you stick with one module the learning curve will be much easier. 

[BuzzU]

The Hornet is the most complex plane in the game because it does so much. Read the manual, do the training missions, and watch the tutorials. (there's a lot of them)

All, I can suggest is don't try to learn too much at once. Pick just one item and just keep at it until you learn it. If you do too much at once your brain gets overloaded and won't learn at all. Unless you have a genius IQ and a super memory. That leaves me out.

[Exorcet]

I am a bit confused on your thoughts between Flaming Cliffs and full DCS modules. While FC is simplified, the concepts are similar from one to the other.

Firstly, when it comes to modern planes you want to operate mainly with HOTAS (Hands on Throttle and Stick). In other words the important stuff is where your hands are 95% of the time. In this way, despite FC being simple, it's a good stand in for DCS.

Where DCS and FC tend to split in my opinion is MFD's. These are powerful tools for the pilot but add many buttons for flight simmers without MFD button boxes. My solution as one of those simmers is to map the most used MFD keys to keyboard (you can HOTAS too, but I like to be realistic somewhat, so I don't map non HOTAS to HOTAS).

The other area where DCS and FC differ is that DCS models each plane's control logic instead of presenting bindings designed for keyboard and PC controllers, but this shouldn't be that big of a problem.

 

To answer your questions:

1 - In general older means simpler, but at some point you're going to move away from modern jets with missiles, which is what it seems like you want from your plane choice.

2 - Trainers are used in real life because they are cheaper and don't allow new pilots to fly in extreme ways that may put them at risk. In a simulator, you should train in the plane you want to fly.

3 - The F-18 isn't very difficult to outperform. It may be able to do a lot of things, but it is not the best at every role. The F-16 is a better air to air and SEAD focused light fighter, and I'd also say it has much more intuitive controls. The A-10 is better at CAS. The F-15 is more of an air superiority aircraft than the Hornet. The Tomcat is a better bomber interceptor. You can find success in many other planes. If the missions/campaigns you're referring to are the ones built for the Hornet though, then know that subbing another plane into those missions may or may not work. It's technically possible in the ME, but some missions use advanced scripts that might break with a plane change, or may have editing protection.

[Airflow]

I've got Thrustmaster Hotas Warthog plus pedals. Been running it in various sims for a while.

Also have a TrackIR laying around, but not using it right now, because it felt way too twitchy with my setup (one big screen), maybe I used it wrong.

 

Flaming Cliffs was easy for me in that there's no advanced avionics controls to learn. I just used the default HOTAS mapping and it felt like a shooting game. But it felt to me like a serious step down from F-22 TAW in terms of how much it "feels real". Not something I'd expect to enjoy for a long time.

Maybe I should give it a second chance? Is there anything useful, i.e. transferable skills, that I can learn from flying FC aircraft? FC has the obvious advantage that I can get some action right away.

 

My long-term preference is for the most advanced aircraft available. If there was the F-35 in the game (a proper sim module, not a reskin), that would be a dream come true for me... of course I guess that won't be possible for many years. I had good experience operating the AV-8B (and I love its STOVL complexity), except for the navigation and the smarter weapons. I've also tried the JF-17, for being the newest plane in the game, but it lacks content and the training missions are too limited.

The F-18 appeals to me for 1) being modern, 2) being super popular, and 3) the added challenge of carrier landings and takeoffs. Although it does feel too buttery-smooth and obedient as a flying machine... but I guess something that's particularly hard to fly would not be good for learning combat.

 

Got it on not needing the trainers. Is learning the F-16 likely to prepare me for an easier curve with the rest of the modules? Or is it something that's just going to spoil me again with intuitive controls? I

'm not sure, but I suspect that my old habits with the F-22 TAW are interfering with learning DCS module controls. It's always a "false friends" situation where I expect things to work a certain way, and then they don't. I have a feeling like I'm missing something fundamental and obvious to everyone else. Like an iphone kid facing a rotary dial phone, and not even thinking of turning the dial.


How many hours should I expect to sink into manuals, tutorials, etc., before being able to do simple combat missions in the F-16 or respectively the F-18?

Edited December 17, 2022 by Airflow

[Soeren_Haudrup]

Hi Airflow

First of all, congrats for joining the DCS environment.

Here are a few thoughts, you might consider in your decicion making process.
BTW. if something i write, sounds a bit odd, thats most probably because english is not my first language.
So in advance, sorry for that.

From my understanding so far, you are at a point where you ask yourself, which module may fit
and will provide the most fun to you. Second thing is, that your time is limited and you ask, if
there is any module that will reduce the time, you have to put into it learning stuff.

Honestly, i think you will experience an equal amount of learning and practicing with every high fidelity module of a modern
weapon system that exists. To make things worse, the learning never stops, no matter how many hours you will gather on a specific module.

I would also say, for most people this is a major part of the whole fun in DCS. Starting as a "noob"
in a new module and working your way up, gaining experience with every sortie and becoming more and more experienced,
confident and proficient with whatever Jet you fly, is a huge part of the whole DCS experience for many of us, i guess.

So i would say flying FC3 modules, to save time learning how to operate systems, is not cutting curves to reach a goal.
It is in my opinion, more like you will take opportunities to learn how complex systems work, away from yourself. You might
save some time now, but very likely you will see very soon, how limiting FC3 modules are and you will change to a high fi
module anyway and have to start at zero again.

When it comes to how much time it takes, to become capable to perform basic Missions, that is a very difficult question to answer,
because nobody but yourself knows, how you define that. If it is sufficient for you to blow a couple of things up, no matter how
or in which way, you can do that pretty fast, maybe within a couple of days. If your goal is, to perform a well planned and
properly executed mission (even a basic one), in which you accomplish exactly defined objectives and complete the necessary tasks, it will take much longer.

So you see, everything in DCS depends on the goals you set for yourself, and the expectations you have, what your experience should be like.

But if you decide to give i a try and start learning a complex high fi module, my advice would be to do that as methodically as possible.
From easy to hard. From basic to complex. The more time you spend in learning basic things, the less brain power they take, when things start to get
complicated. The more time you spend practicing, the more things will become a second nature to you, even operating seemingly difficult and "weird" avionic
and weapon system stuf, so you will eventually become able to focus on your mission and not on the Jet you fly.

Sorry for throwing so much text at you, but these are the things i consider to be worth thinking of.

SH

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Soeren_Haudrup

[Exorcet]

8 hours ago, Airflow said:

Maybe I should give it a second chance? Is there anything useful, i.e. transferable skills, that I can learn from flying FC aircraft? FC has the obvious advantage that I can get some action right away.

FC3 can teach you about flying, air to air radar, air refueling, BVR tactics, WVR tactics, dumb bomb/rocket employment, flight profiles, and probably a few other things. Despite the simplifications these things aren't far off from full modules.

What FC3 lacks are accurate radios, high fidelity datalink, AG radar, smart weapons, targeting pods, and emergency procedures.

8 hours ago, Airflow said:

 

My long-term preference is for the most advanced aircraft available. If there was the F-35 in the game (a proper sim module, not a reskin), that would be a dream come true for me... of course I guess that won't be possible for many years. I had good experience operating the AV-8B (and I love its STOVL complexity), except for the navigation and the smarter weapons. I've also tried the JF-17, for being the newest plane in the game, but it lacks content and the training missions are too limited.

Consider the A-10C too, it's quite modern and complex, though not a high speed fighter. It's even slower than the AV-8.

8 hours ago, Airflow said:

The F-18 appeals to me for 1) being modern, 2) being super popular, and 3) the added challenge of carrier landings and takeoffs. Although it does feel too buttery-smooth and obedient as a flying machine... but I guess something that's particularly hard to fly would not be good for learning combat.

If you stick with it, you'll eventually learn the Hornet. Then you can move on to another plane that is more challenging to fly. DCS can take some time to learn, but proficiency in more than one module isn't impossible.

8 hours ago, Airflow said:

Got it on not needing the trainers. Is learning the F-16 likely to prepare me for an easier curve with the rest of the modules? Or is it something that's just going to spoil me again with intuitive controls?

It depends really. The F-16 will teach you a lot about US weapons and tactics. It also shares its flight stick with the A-10. However the F-16, as an Air Force plane, uses boom refueling as opposed to basket refueling on the F-18 for example.

There will be some things that will carry over to other planes and some that won't. Even if the F-16 might be easier, because not everything carries over, you are probably best off just training on your favorite plane(s). The reasoning is similar to trainers basically.

8 hours ago, Airflow said:

I'm not sure, but I suspect that my old habits with the F-22 TAW are interfering with learning DCS module controls. It's always a "false friends" situation where I expect things to work a certain way, and then they don't. I have a feeling like I'm missing something fundamental and obvious to everyone else. Like an iphone kid facing a rotary dial phone, and not even thinking of turning the dial.


How many hours should I expect to sink into manuals, tutorials, etc., before being able to do simple combat missions in the F-16 or respectively the F-18?

 

I can't give a specific timeframe for learning a module. I started DCS a decade ago and even then I had previous experience with its predecessor, LOMAC. However I do remember my skills gradually increasing with practice. When you can remember how most of the systems work, you should be ready for missions. It doesn't mean you will succeed, but you should try just to get the experience. I suggest learning one type of mission at a time (CAP, SEAD, Antiship, etc). This way you can learn in smaller chunks, and your missions are going to only focus on one or two goals anyway. It's extremely unlikely that you will need to use every system on the plane in a single mission.

[Dscross]

On 12/15/2022 at 9:23 AM, Airflow said:

Questions:

 - Is there any jet airplane in DCS that has markedly easier-to-learn avionics than the rest? Either simpler, or more intuitive, or a great manual.

 - Should I try a survey-sim style progression - try to learn a simpler plane first, then more complex ones? Or put all my efforts into the F-18 or whatever I want to keep flying?

 - If I choose anything other than the F-18 as my primary aircraft, will that make the missions/campaigns more difficult, due to lower performance, or is it a non-issue?

 

A couple things. First, if you're flying the F/A-18, stick with it. Learning is a process, not an instant result. Spending time with the avionics of one jet, things will start to make sense. There is the early access guide for the Hornet, you can find in in your F/A-18 module folder of your main game files or download it directly from the DCS website. ("Downloads") Documentation (digitalcombatsimulator.com)

Here is the link to the Chuck's guide, a must have reference for any sim pilot. https://chucksguides.com/aircraft/dcs/fa-18c/

The NATPOS for the F/A-18 is also publicly available. Just google it. I don't want to get dinged for putting a too recent NATPOS in here, but they're easy to find. You can even get a printed version on Amazon if I recall. 

 

Every aircraft is different in DCS. They all have different systems, weapons, and performance. A good Hornet driver can do just about anything. Just like a Good Viper driver, etc. The more time you spend with the airframe, the more comfortable you'll be with it. I give ED a fair bit of stick from time to time, but there is nothing in the sim world that compares to how detailed these modules are. NOUTHING. So you're not going to figure everything out about the hornet (or any aircraft) in a day, or week, etc. For every system, there's usually a subsystem, and several different functions for each. For example, you can bomb in CCRP, CCIP, Manual modes. You bomb an offset, a target waypoint, or drop on a buddy laser. You have high drag bombs, low drag bombs, etc. I personally know some very knowledgeable hornet drivers in DCS. None of them can use every single system on the jet to an expert level. (Because really, how many of us practice getting bombs on target with manual bombing in the hornet? No many I imagine) Personally I have more than a few hours in the hornet, I still look stuff up, I don't have the entire HARM table committed to memory. (But who does SEAD in the Hornet if they own a Viper with the HTS?) Point is, you'll need to put in the time on the module to learn it. 

The best advice I can give you is to find someone to fly with. Learning any jet in DCS all alone is a pain. It takes at least twice as long as opposed to having a buddy, wingman, or half competent instructor. Anyone to ask questions too, discuss problems, etc. 

What I tell everyone, with every module, is learn the Navigation system first. Warplanes (and warships, and soldiers,) all depend on navigation to perform their mission. Learn how to make a waypoint. Learn how to input MGRS coordinates, and Lat/ Long precise coordinates into the jet. Learn how to make a mark point. Once you know that, everything else starts to make sense. Next, learn how the targeting pods work. Learn how to slave your tgp to a waypoint or target, or how to make a mark point with the tgp. Once you can do all that, all the weapons systems just fall into place, because they all depend on the navigation system. (don't' forget to learn how radio navigation & TACAN works, because you'll need to find your way back to the boat somehow). After learning Navigation and Radio Navigation and the targeting pods, learn how your radar works. 

When you're ready to move onto weapons, start with one and use it in every way possible until you know it and can use it in any mode. Drop Mk82s in Auto, CCIP (manual if you are into that...) Drop them on a target from the targeting pod, or a waypoint. Drop Mk82Y (air ballute) bombs in high drag, low drag, auto and CCIP. (Again, and manual if you want) Use the AIM-120 in RWS, TWS multitarget, and in dogfight modes. Use the AIIM-7 in STT, loft, and helo modes. Use the AIM-9 with your helmet, without it, and with the radar. During all this training, fly formation with a tanker or an AWACS whenever you find one, and soon you'll be plugging into the tanker all the time to top off with gas. Since you learned Navigation first, the JDAM and GPS guided weapons will come easily, because it's just plugging in coordinates or using TOO (target of opportunity) mode with the helmet, radar, or targeting pod. 

Navigation, Targeting Pods, Radar, Helmet, Jettison, Emergency Jettison, Dump weapons, laser guided weapons, IR weapons, GPS weapons, SEAD, A2A weapons, Aerial Refueling, and Datalink weapons. (Walleye, SLAM / SLAM-ER) 

Make yourself a checklist of one thing to learn per day. learn it and do it until it comes naturally. Then do the next thing. Each progressive step will make better sense because you already learned something else about the jet. 

 

Now, on the F16. Don't' fly it. Not because it's not good, it is. Don't fly it because it's an air force jet and you've already started learning the "Navy" way. Every nation or military which builds or buys an airplane puts their own "flavor" into it. Airforce does things one way, navy another, the French... Yeah, each have their own flavor. When the Mirage F1 came out, it was fairly easy for me to figure out, because I already had a bit of time in the M2000, and those real jets were made by the same company / nation. I learned the F-16 after I learned the F/A-18 and Tomcat, I still am annoyed with the F16 and A10 just because I like "navy" and air force jets work differently. You've already started on the F/A-18, stick with it. All that being said, in my experience the JF-17 is the most straight forward modern jet. Everything has one function. No long press, short press, just make something sensor of interest and go to work. Granted there are some big limitations to what the JF-17 can do, doesn't carry much gas for example, the gun might as well not be in the jet, but what it does, it does well and in a straightforward manner. 

Good luck on your learning process. Feel free to message me if you have any questions, I may be able to answer. I'm Dscross#3705 on discord, or message me here. 

[rob10]

5 hours ago, Dscross said:

Now, on the F16. Don't' fly it. Not because it's not good, it is. Don't fly it because it's an air force jet and you've already started learning the "Navy" way. Every nation or military which builds or buys an airplane puts their own "flavor" into it. Airforce does things one way, navy another, the French... Yeah, each have their own flavor.

I would agree with this.  You'll get used to doing something one way in the F-18 and it's completely different in the F-16 and just makes life confusing.

I'd also point out that the current F-18 manual and Chuck's guide are both somewhat out of date (as are some U-Tube vid's) so if something isn't working it's worth searching the forums to see if things have changed.  In fact I would say it's worth doing a browse through the F-18 forum to see what may have changed (and the changelogs as well).

[fagulha]

39 minutes ago, rob10 said:

I would agree with this.  You'll get used to doing something one way in the F-18 and it's completely different in the F-16 and just makes life confusing.

I'd also point out that the current F-18 manual and Chuck's guide are both somewhat out of date (as are some U-Tube vid's) so if something isn't working it's worth searching the forums to see if things have changed.  In fact I would say it's worth doing a browse through the F-18 forum to see what may have changed (and the changelogs as well).

I´m a DCS carrier ops guy that fly mainly the Hornet, but, i´m loving to learn the procedures (USAF) for the Viper. If you understand why things work the way they do you´ll make no confusion on my humble opinion.

I have limited time so even when i´m away from my PC i always carry on my phone (and also in the work computer) manuals and procedures to read on free time during the day at work.

[CBStu]

I started DCS because I wanted a better FA-18 than another game had. I got it. I flew the missions that came w/ it for a long time and still fly SP only. One thing I have found to help a ton is set up your PC so you can pause DCS and go to a reference. I fly in a window so the banner across the bottom of the screen is always visible. So I can get to info I have saved ( I made a chart of all the munitions for instance), Chuck's Guide, or the web for youtube. My keyboard has a pause button which stops the entire game but will allow you to look at the F10 map. I also set my 'P' key to be an active pause. This stops your plane but everything else keeps happening. The advantage is everything in your plane still works. So you can go through, for instance Chucks Guide section on setting up a Jdam bomb, and pop back and forth between the guide and your plane. Or hit active pause and try to find a target w/ the radar or FLIR. If you have a wingman, he will just fly circles around you. One other thought, this is not easy, it takes a lot of stick time to be really good. So get used to using L-SHIFT, R to re-start. If I screw up or get shot down, I hit those 2 keys and start right over again. Don't let yourself get frustrated. You will find one of the included missions that you can fly fairly well. If you are going out of your mind on something, get out of it and go to your favorite mission and have some fun. 

[Eclipse]

My recommendation is to take it one thing at a time, and READ THE MANUAL. it is located in your DCS install, in the mod folder, then the aircraft's subfolder, then the "doc" folder.  More will be learned in less time simply reading the relevant sections of the manual than by trying to piece things together from other sources. Use the other sources as a supplement to the manual, not a substitute. I have spent many a weekend morning with my coffee and the Hornet manual.  It takes time, but you will learn it, and learn it the right way, not someone else's (sometimes incorrect) understanding of a subject. 

The manual isn't complete and there are a few missing bits or some things that were not translated well, but you I've been able to learn every system and weapon system with it, along with the training missions. 

After reading the manual section(s) on a particular topic you'll be able to spot incorrect information in YouTube videos and such, which can save you some trouble. 

And if you are stuck on something, the community is fantastic and will usually quickly answer specific questions. 

Take it in manageable pieces and enjoy the process! Welcome! 

[Bucic]

To me it's the equivalent of "learning THE graphics program". Don't learn *it*. Learn the graphics creation, using that program. In the same way I recommend learning avionics of any particular aircraft using a task-based approach. Follow and excercise every enroute navigation tutorial out there plus some tutorials for the two most used weapons on that platform and I guarantee in the end there's not going to be much in the realm of avionics that you don't grasp.

Also, as @Eclipse said, RTFM First time with the *intent* to only glance through it. And take notes!

Edited February 6, 2023 by Bucic

[Airflow]

Yeah, the RTFM thing worked. I got pampered with the tutorials in other games, which let you learn everything without ever tabbing out. Not the case here... Chuck's guide finally helped, though. I was surprised with how easy and simple many of the controls are.

And realized that others actually are that obtuse in the sim, like manually moving the TDC to pick a contact... or is that just me, not doing it right? Still feels ridiculous, when the STEP button on the SA can just cycle between them, but apparently I still need to manually steer the antenna to the location the machine already knows, as a daily test of my worthiness to command it and not the other way around.