investigating Problem with "Auto turn to TGT"

[Bl4ckSp4rrow]

Hello,

im starting with my helo and getting into auto hover. I select my Vikhr and uncage them. When i lock on and turn into "Auto turn to TGT"  the target line-of-sight symbol is within the missile launch zone reticle. When i want to launch another one the rectile is outside from the target line-of-sight (Pic 2). I can still shoot in Manual mode but im wondering why its behaving like this. When i recenter the Shkval it looks like on Pic 1. Maybe someone can help me please.

[RealDCSpilot]

I always use manual mode, can't even remember when i used auto mode the last time. Maybe 10 years ago? I use the Ka-50 for the most hairy situations, often trying to shoot from 8 km away, or even more, to take advantage of it's sniping capabilities.

Edited December 17, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[Ephedrin]

used to work correctly before. Now it turns to either side, left in my case most of the time and doesn't stop.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Wafer99:

just adjust with rudder.

The point of this mode is not to be required to do that but let the aircraft fly/hover itself

[jubuttib]

I've always had this issue with BS2 as well, and have had to adjust with pedals, or go manual authorization. I'm surprised to hear some people _haven't_ had this before. =/

[Beirut]

I went to manual after watching one of Volk's tutorials. Good stuff. Much faster to get a shot off.

[xfirf]

Usually I would hover. Activate "turn on target" and then lock a target with Shkval by pressing "lock" and then the Black Shark 3 should align to the target.

Right or wrong (and I´m missing something?)

[450Devil]

With Auto Turn selected, when I designate a target using the Helmut Mounted Sight (by aligning the HMS to the target and then pressing Uncage) the aircraft turns to point about 10 degrees right of the target.

[stalhuth]

this thing it is broke right now and some others stuff like data link

[hellion]

I agree that this new version BS 3 is buggy, especially in regards to the "Auto Turn".

It does not work like the version 2 does.

 

How it should work is If you lock on to a target with the HMS sight with the "Auto Turn" on in hover mode, the aircraft should turn towards the location where you designated using the HMS sight,  centering it on the HUD.

Currently (in version 3) it does not accurately turn to the designated point, and even resists if you try to correct it.

The "Auto Turn" is not able to line up accurately with the designation point using hover mode in other words.

I end up spiraling out of control trying, but unless I am missing some setting or procedure I did not need to perform before in BS 2 (some kind of calibration maybe?), I think this is a bug in BS 3.

 

This aircraft is already pretty hard to fly, and the developers just made it even worse.

I hope they fix this soon.

[Bl4ckSp4rrow]

51 minutes ago, hellion said:

I agree that this new version BS 3 is buggy, especially in regards to the "Auto Turn".

It does not work like the version 2 does.

 

How it should work is If you lock on to a target with the HMS sight with the "Auto Turn" on in hover mode, the aircraft should turn towards the location where you designated using the HMS sight,  centering it on the HUD.

Currently (in version 3) it does not accurately turn to the designated point, and even resists if you try to correct it.

The "Auto Turn" is not able to line up accurately with the designation point using hover mode in other words.

I end up spiraling out of control trying, but unless I am missing some setting or procedure I did not need to perform before in BS 2 (some kind of calibration maybe?), I think this is a bug in BS 3.

 

This aircraft is already pretty hard to fly, and the developers just made it even worse.

I hope they fix this soon.

The Helo is stopping 40-60 degrees away from target when auto turn is on. When you slew too much it completely resets the helo spinning it far away from target. I did the INU allignment correctly and the course correction. Seems that it doesnt affect all of the players.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Bl4ckSp4rrow

[Bl4ckSp4rrow]

He has the same problem like me. Beginning from minute 46:00. You can see the next 10 minutes which problem he has with the auto turn

[Zholik]

pretty sure it has something to do with the INS, auto turn works perfectly fine with a hot start or when you disable realistic ins in the editor. completely non functional in cold start with either accelerated or precision/norm align.

[Bl4ckSp4rrow]

Just now, Zholik said:

pretty sure it has something to do with the INS, auto turn works perfectly fine with a hot start or when you disable realistic ins in the editor. completely non functional in cold start with either accelerated or precision/norm align.

I did the allignment like its descriped in the manual and the correction too. Maybe its a bug 

[stalhuth]

it's a bug 

[FusRoPotato]

I don't think it has anything to do with INS. Shouldn't matter at all, even if your INS is off. Any offset of bearing drift in your INS will also be present in your target vector, meaning that even if your bearing is off, your target will be off by the same amount. You should still be lining up with your target vector regardless of what bearing it thinks it is.

I think the actual issue is overdone yaw stability. Notice you can't fly this thing sideways at more than 10km/h without really fighting yaw. It's hardly realistic. That vertical stab barely overcomes the body frame instability and should not be yawing like that much in sideways translation. The target heading hold is probably being shoved off by wind forces during a hover because the flight model is simply too strong in this respect. At least, I've only really been noticing it on servers with wind. I've been getting the feeling this is the case for a lot of the moment coefs about this helicopter, they just seem too high in general, easily by a factor of 2. Not an uncommon mistake across a lot of DCS modules. On top of that, there's no apparent compensation for lack of FFB modeling being translated to reference neutral points. You really have to hold the stick and pedals at extreme positions despite requiring force to do so, when an appropriate compensation is to have the neutral point mapped back to center point of a stick for non-FFB PC hardware. Would probably feel a lot more natural like that, even though neutral points don't usually describe neutral moments.

Edited December 18, 2022 by FusRoPotato

[Zholik]

20 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

I don't think it has anything to do with INS. Shouldn't matter at all, even if your INS is off. Any offset of bearing drift in your INS will also be present in your target vector, meaning that even if your bearing is off, your target will be off by the same amount. You should still be lining up with your target vector regardless of what bearing it thinks it is.

I think the actual issue is overdone yaw stability. Notice you can't fly this thing sideways at more than 10km/h without really fighting yaw. It's hardly realistic. That vertical stab barely overcomes the body frame instability and should not be yawing like that much in sideways translation. The target heading hold is probably being shoved off by wind forces during a hover because the flight model is simply too strong in this respect. At least, I've only really been noticing it on servers with wind. I've been getting the feeling this is the case for a lot of the moment coefs about this helicopter, they just seem too high in general, easily by a factor of 2. Not an uncommon mistake across a lot of DCS modules. On top of that, there's no apparent compensation for lack of FFB modeling being translated to reference neutral points. You really have to hold the stick and pedals at extreme positions despite requiring force to do so, when an appropriate compensation is to have the neutral point mapped back to center point of a stick for non-FFB PC hardware. Would probably feel a lot more natural like that, even though neutral points don't usually describe neutral moments.

 

doesn't happen in hot start and doesn't happen with realistic ins turned off soo

[SnuggleFairy]

Yeah it's definitely INS, you can have a misaligned INS and the auto-turn will not work properly. Then you can create a reference point under yourself and correct the INS without going anywhere and then the auto-turn will work properly but only for a few minutes until the INS drifts again. The drift is ridiculously fast for some reason

[Bl4ckSp4rrow]

2 hours ago, Zholik said:

doesn't happen in hot start and doesn't happen with realistic ins turned off soo

Tested it today in the mission editor without realistic INS. Works perfectly

Edited December 19, 2022 by Bl4ckSp4rrow

[FusRoPotato]

14 hours ago, Zholik said:

doesn't happen in hot start and doesn't happen with realistic ins turned off soo

 

12 hours ago, SnuggleFairy said:

Yeah it's definitely INS, you can have a misaligned INS and the auto-turn will not work properly. Then you can create a reference point under yourself and correct the INS without going anywhere and then the auto-turn will work properly but only for a few minutes until the INS drifts again. The drift is ridiculously fast for some reason

 

11 hours ago, Bl4ckSp4rrow said:

Tested it today in the mission editor without realistic INS. Works perfectly

 

It has to be a bug then, because an INS calibration issue shouldn't cause that. If you pick a target at a specific GPS location, how does your targeting system know the real GPS when your INS doesn't? That's the only way they could be misaligned, is if they have 2 separate alignment systems fighting each other; one that's correct and one that's not.

Edited December 20, 2022 by FusRoPotato

[SnuggleFairy]

21 minutes ago, FusRoPotato said:

 

 

It has to be a bug then, because an INS calibration issue shouldn't cause that. If you pick a target at a specific GPS location, how does your targeting system know the real GPS when your INS doesn't? That's the only way they could be misaligned, is if they have 2 separate alignment systems fighting each other; one that's correct and one that's not.

 

Let me try to explain what i think. Disclaimer first - i'm not a KA-50 designer or engineer, all of my knowledge comes from testing the Ka-50 in DCS and observing its behavior under various conditions. Targeting system and INS are one system. I think when you point your shkval at a point on the ground it gets coordinates of said point and calculates the heading it needs to turn to using the aircraft's current coordinates. Let's say you're hovering at the blue A circle and your target is directly north of you (red circle C). But your INS is out of alignment and it thinks you're to the left of your current position (Blue circle B), so it thinks the target is actually 30 degrees to the right and it turns you 30 degrees right pointing you at red circle D. I have no idea if that's how it actually supposed to work, but it seems to behave this way at this moment.

[xfirf]

Is there a way to make an inflight-alignment without setting up fix-points before starting?

[xfirf]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Malakhit:

You can set up fix-points at any time you like, it doesn't have to be before starting. You could set one up as you're hovering over it, if you wish.

But I do have to enter coordinates from that fixpoint, right? Or is there a way to do this without typing in something?

[SnuggleFairy]

3 minutes ago, xfirf said:

Is there a way to make an inflight-alignment without setting up fix-points before starting?

yes, the "Helicopter Coordinate Corrections" chapter in the manual on page 10-30 explains the process of course correction, you just have to manually punch a Fix point into PVI. go to 16:00 of this video if you want a visual https://youtu.be/t3l8vjZEqUs

 

[xfirf]

Thank you.