DCS: A-10C: Satellite guided JDAM's?

[Chibawang]

Just wondering if this new toy of the Hog's will make it into the sim, as I'd love to try it out. Also, on a slightly unrelated note...

 

The Ka-50's 30mm cannon seems relatively ineffective at neutralizing armored targets. However, the A-10's 30mm cannon is clearly quite capable of giving any tank commander a very bad day.

 

Exhibit A:

 

So what's the difference here?

[einar-st]

Rate of fire is one difference :D

[Tigrom]

Watching videos of the A10 on youtube, the noise that gun makes..

 

It really is quite something, imagine hearing that noise when you're the next target, it'd be horrible.

 

Despite being a total rotorhead, I may be slightly looking forward to the A10.

[DarkWanderer]

So what's the difference here?

Main differencies lay, as mentioned, in rate of fire. Muzzle velocity also slightly differs (1067 vs. 970 for 2A42). From open sources, armor penetration values for GAU-8 are:

* 69 mm at 500 meters

* 38 mm at 1000 meters

For 2A42:

* 28 mm at 1000 meters at 60deg to normal (=40-50mm at normal)

So, the only reason for Ka-50 gun ineffectiveness in game is lack of precise armor thickness modelling. And from the forum messages, it looks like to be one of priority tasks for the next project.

Edited January 19, 2009 by DarkWanderer

[192nd_Erdem]

Main differencies lay, as mentioned, in rate of fire. Muzzle velocity also slightly differs (1067 vs. 970 for 2A42). From open sources, armor penetration values for GAU-8 are:

* 69 mm at 500 meters

* 38 mm at 1000 meters

For 2A42:

* 28 mm at 1000 meters at 60deg to normal (=40-50mm at normal)

So, the only reason for Ka-50 gun ineffectiveness in game is lack of precise armor thickness modelling. And from the forum messages, it looks like to be one of priority tasks for the next project.

 

You mean there will be advanced vehicle damage modelling? That's what I've been waiting for :)

[uhoh7]

The Ka-50's 30mm cannon seems relatively ineffective at neutralizing armored targets. However, the A-10's 30mm cannon is clearly quite capable of giving any tank commander a very bad day.

 

Exhibit A:

 

So what's the difference here?

 

I'm now finding the 30mm works very well against everything but MBTs.

 

Most of the armor in the vid is pretty dated---and that number of rounds from the KA-50 will certainly kill a t-55.

 

Problem is you need to be pretty close, within 2k to get really good results.

[Feuerfalke]

Most of the armor in the vid is pretty dated---and that number of rounds from the KA-50 will certainly kill a t-55.

 

At least against BlackSharks' shoot em up-hitpoint tanks :D

[Chibawang]

Yeah, I figured rate of fire had something to do with it but that didn't seem like an end all answer. So lack of armor modelling makes alot more sense.

[Boberro]

Is it already known ED Team will model A-10C not A-10A version in the next game module?

 

Yes, it is. :)

Edited January 19, 2009 by Boberro
grammar

[GGTharos]

The two guns are both 30mm. That is where the similarities end; the GAU-8 is the more powerful gun due to muzzle velocity, round mass, and volume of fire.

 

And yes, it is known that it will be the A-10C that is modeled.

[mckee14]

the GAU-8 uses uranium depleted ammunition, that's the main reason why it ripps tanks like paper. with the uranium core, each single bullet has a lot more weight (in the same size), and therefore a lot more cinetical energy is generated/"slammed into the target" when the bullet hits something.

 

(not all the bullets are uranium depleted - they usually carry a mixture of them together with some HE rounds)

 

this, plus the higher rate of fire, plus the higher muzzle velocity = maximum destruction possible :)

 

the GAU-8 was not built into the A-10; the A-10 was built around that (absolutely oversized fancy bling bling) gun... that's also why the front wheel is not centered but off to one side. and, when going with high rate of fire, pilots should not fire bursts longer than 1 second, or the plane is risking to fall out of the sky because it gets slowed down from the recoil... which is 40,82 kN!

 

uhmmm.... yep, i really can't wait to get the hog! ;)

[arneh]

The two guns are both 30mm. That is where the similarities end; the GAU-8 is the more powerful gun due to muzzle velocity, round mass, and volume of fire.

 

Actually the rounds weight about the same (for the GAU-8 the HEI rounds are 365 g and the API are 425 g. From what I've found the 2A42 HE rounds are 390 g, don't know if the AP rounds are heavier. For comparison the Apache's M230 rounds are much lighter at just 240 g), and muzzle velocity is only slightly lower for the 2A42. But rate of fire is obviously much higher for the GAU-8, so that's the big difference.

 

BTW the GSh-30-2 used on the Su-25 and the Mi-24P fire the same rounds as the 2A42, but with a firing rate almost as high as the GAU-8. So that would be more comparable.

[GGTharos]

My mistake - you're right about the round weight. Also the DU rounds were pointed out above, which are a factor. Muzzle velocity in this case plays a bigger role probably, as well as the fact that the aircraft imparts some additional velocity to the rounds just by flying.

[ZaltysZ]

Also, don't forget that Gatling guns have much higher spread, which isn't always a good thing.

[MBot]

What kind of core does the 2A42 API ammo use? I read somewhere that the depleted uranium of the GAU-8 is not the ultimate penetrator, wolfram would be stronger. DU is just cheaper.

 

I guess what makes the GAU-8 the better weapon is rate of fire. I doubt that it is realy a MBT killer, but whith such a high rate of fire chances are high to simply disable a tank.

[ZaltysZ]

I guess what makes the GAU-8 the better weapon is rate of fire. I doubt that it is realy a MBT killer, but whith such a high rate of fire chances are high to simply disable a tank.

 

The most important word. GAU-8 has 80% probability to hit inside circle with radius of 6m at 1200m range. Tracks of tank should have hard time with this big cloud of rounds.

[ZaltysZ]

Well, if A-10C version is modelled, we will get two very different types of toys in DCS! Especially Ka-50 avionics looks very backward as compared with A-10C.

 

You should not compare helicopter to jet. They have different strength and weaknesses - I am not speaking about avionics.

[GGTharos]

What kind of core does the 2A42 API ammo use? I read somewhere that the depleted uranium of the GAU-8 is not the ultimate penetrator, wolfram would be stronger. DU is just cheaper.

 

AFAIK that's just 'ZOMG DU is radioactive' propaganda. DU is pyrotic and thus probably a better tank killer. Penetration isn't a huge issue here because both are likely to have very similar penetration.

 

I guess what makes the GAU-8 the better weapon is rate of fire. I doubt that it is realy a MBT killer, but whith such a high rate of fire chances are high to simply disable a tank.

 

Oh but it is. While frontal shots would be largely ineffective, hitting the top/rear of the tank, or perforating the gun tube will disable or destroy the tank - in the rear you have engine grills and flammable material, which is a prime target for a pyrotic substance. You just have to pick the right side to shoot from.

 

That said, primary targets for the gun should be APC's and lighter vehicles, while MBTs would be a primary target for AGM-65's and bombs.

[ericinexile]

Just wondering if this new toy of the Hog's will make it into the sim, as I'd love to try it out...

 

Part of me hopes it doesn't, even though I know it should be if available on the A-10 IRL. This is somewhat modeled on FreeFalcon 4 (RedViper). You drop (JDAM) or launch (JSOW) and when the weapon hits, you are half-way to home, coffee, and a sandwich. No pilot action required other than scrolling through pre-programed targets and pickle.

[mckee14]

out of the www:

 

Aircraft and tank rounds sometimes use a core of depleted uranium. The penetrator is a pointed mass of high-density material that is designed to retain its shape and carry the maximum possible amount of energy as deeply as possible into the target. Depleted-uranium penetrators have the advantage of being pyrophoric and self-sharpening on impact, resulting in intense heat and energy focused on a minimal area of the target's armor

 

and

 

To maximize the amount of kinetic energy released on the target, the penetrator must be made of a dense material, such as tungsten or depleted uranium (DU) alloy (Staballoy). The hardness of the penetrator is of less importance, but is still a factor as abrasion is a major component of the penetrator defeat mechanism. As DU is itself not particularly hard, it is alloyed with nickel, zinc, or both. DU is pyrophoric; the heated fragments of the penetrator ignite after impact on contact with air, setting fire to fuel and/or ammunition in the target vehicle, thereby compensating for the lack of an explosive warhead in the penetrator. Additionally, DU penetrators exhibit significant adiabatic shear band formation. During impact, fractures along these bands cause the tip of the penetrator to continuously shed material. This erosion maintains the tip's conical shape and increases the amount of pyrophoric fragments released behind the target armour. Other materials such as unjacketed tungsten tend to deform into a less effective rounded profile, an effect called "mushrooming".

 

i think that's one reason, why they use depleted uranium for the cores.

 

if i watch the video of a A-10 on the testrange (

- at 0:40), it looks like the bullets are doing a lot of damage per bullet. compared to the effect on tanks in blackshark, it's massively more...

[ericinexile]

...PS. JDAM/JSOW delivery method in RV is unrealistic. Mod creators acknowledged it themselves because real F-16 satellite-guided weapon delivery procedures and FCR/IRST/HUD targeting modes are also secret.

 

Thus the "somewhat".

[Mad Dog 7.62]

Well, this has turned into a "my guess is better than your guess" thread......

[Groove]

Let's stay on topic. For personal chit-chat there is the PM system and a huge variety of IMs on the internet.

[ericinexile]

Not exactly! We can make some relative penetration estimates basing on available facts like muzzle velocity, bullet mass, material used etc. and universal laws of physics. That way I can assume PGU-14 rounds cause more penetration than 2A42 AP rounds.

 

Now this is a man of perseverance and persistance. Have him guard the bridge on the remake of Monty Python and the Holy Grail!