Kneeboard Program - good for VR?

[dburne]

Hey gang,

Been using Kneeboard Builder for a number of years now and always like it, however it is no longer supported and now I can not get it to display my pages correctly - they are all garbled up. I need a good kneeboard program for VR. I like to create my own kneeboard with pages for individual pdf's that I have saved to cover each section of an aircraft I am learning, like cold start for instance I have a needboard showing all the steps for cold start (From Chuck's Guides).

Working on learning the DCS Spit now and cold start is typically the first thing I learn. Something not too complex that is easy to learn and displays nicely in a VR Headset. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!!

[dburne]

Well I downloaded OpenKneeboard but going to have to dig into some documentation somewhere as I can not quite get it figured out. Hoping it gives me what I want. I just want the ablility to for example print off the cold start procedure and be able to view the cold start procedure in my kneeboard in VR headset.

Edited January 2, 2023 by dburne

[Drac]

Not sure if this will work for you, but I would just print the page and then scan as a .png.  Place the .png file in the appropriate folder. This is what I'm currently doing. Again, this may not be what you are looking for.

[dburne]

Seems that would be a lot of individual pages to scan.

[Sinclair_76]

I am a big fan of VRK. Have a kneeboard with an intuos tablet and pen and am able to use to jot down notes. It's not the easiest to set up and eats some performance but adds immensely to the immersion.

 

Imports PDF's. Has a note page, a calculator and a form system. Forms are pages with a picture in the background, say a 9-liner. When you need a new page a new blank nine line appears.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Sinclair_76

[dburne]

3 hours ago, Sinclair_76 said:

I am a big fan of VRK. Have a kneeboard with an intuos tablet and pen and am able to use to jot down notes. It's not the easiest to set up and eats some performance but adds immensely to the immersion.

 

Imports PDF's. Has a note page, a calculator and a form system. Forms are pages with a picture in the background, say a 9-liner. When you need a new page a new blank nine line appears.

 

 

What is VRK? Needless to say google does not quite get it. I don't care a thing about jotting down notes or writing anything. All I want is a kneeboard I can use in VR that I can display individual pages showing certain things at a time, like cold starts. I want to be able to view that and page through it whilst doing the cold start procedure. At least until I have done it so much have it committed to memory.

So far all this OpenKneeboard has done is confuse me even way more just trying to understand how to use it. Don't think it is going to be for me and I was hopeful there at first, shame really as it appears it is still supported and receiving updates. If there are any instructions with it to clear things up for me I sure can't find them which is too bad.

Edited January 2, 2023 by dburne

[schmiefel]

5 minutes ago, dburne said:

So far all this OpenKneeboard has done is confuse me even way more just trying to understand how to use it.

Open Kneeboard really shines when using it in conjunction with a real graphics tablet - I use a rather cheap one from Huion (https://www.huion.com/de/pen_tablet/Inspiroy/H430P.html ) that I attach with a kneeboard (I use this one also used in real aviation: https://flyboys.com/products/flyboys-reversible-kneeboard-with-clipboard ) to my leg.

I found the configuration in Open Kneeboard rather straight forward: you can manage everything that's possible via the settings tab. E.g. to add a PDF file with startup procedures just go to 'Settings', select 'Tabs' and '+Add a Tab' in the upper right corner. Then you can select a single file per tab, but that could consist of several pages, that's why I prefer PDF files, or if you have just a bunch of e.g. PNGs put them all together in a single folder and add this to a new tab via the 'Folder' selection.

If you make a PDF with empty pages and add this to an extra tab you can even use this im combination with such a graphics tablet mentioned above to make your own notes - a really useful feature if e.g, you fly in MP with a group of others and have to remember special mission informations for your flight or when you get mission updates during a mission - like in real live. And with some training its quite easy to make notes while wearing a VR headset and not seeing your pen but just feeling the tablet under it - add some velcro or other physical marks to the writing area of the tablet and its quite easy to find the right position for writing notes.

To navigate through the tabs and pages in VR you have several options under 'Settings' and 'Input' to assign certain keys or controls to navigate up and down through the tabs and left and right through the content in the actual selected tab. Outside VR you can simply use your mouse to click the navigation symbols on the top of the application. The order of your tabs can be changed via drag and drop with your mouse when using Open Kneeboard on the desktop.

Some tabs are configured by default so that e.g. radio messages are collected in the 'radio log' tab or certain mission briefing data, if provided, are presented via the mission tab etc.

Most of this is mentioned in the Quick Reference Manual that Open Kneeboard shows after the initial setup and start. Be sure to download and use the latest version (https://github.com/OpenKneeboard/OpenKneeboard/releases/tag/v1.2.4 ) as the functionality has been growing pretty good  over the time.

I would rate Open Kneeboard as one of few really essential tools especially for flying in VR.

[dburne]

13 minutes ago, schmiefel said:

Open Kneeboard really shines when using it in conjunction with a real graphics tablet - I use a rather cheap one from Huion (https://www.huion.com/de/pen_tablet/Inspiroy/H430P.html ) that I attach with a kneeboard (I use this one also used in real aviation: https://flyboys.com/products/flyboys-reversible-kneeboard-with-clipboard ) to my leg.

I found the configuration in Open Kneeboard rather straight forward: you can manage everything that's possible via the settings tab. E.g. to add a PDF file with startup procedures just go to 'Settings', select 'Tabs' and '+Add a Tab' in the upper right corner. Then you can select a single file per tab, but that could consist of several pages, that's why I prefer PDF files, or if you have just a bunch of e.g. PNGs put them all together in a single folder and add this to a new tab via the 'Folder' selection.

If you make a PDF with empty pages and add this to an extra tab you can even use this im combination with such a graphics tablet mentioned above to make your own notes - a really useful feature if e.g, you fly in MP with a group of others and have to remember special mission informations for your flight or when you get mission updates during a mission - like in real live. And with some training its quite easy to make notes while wearing a VR headset and not seeing your pen but just feeling the tablet under it - add some velcro or other physical marks to the writing area of the tablet and its quite easy to find the right position for writing notes.

To navigate through the tabs and pages in VR you have several options under 'Settings' and 'Input' to assign certain keys or controls to navigate up and down through the tabs and left and right through the content in the actual selected tab. Outside VR you can simply use your mouse to click the navigation symbols on the top of the application. The order of your tabs can be changed via drag and drop with your mouse when using Open Kneeboard on the desktop.

Some tabs are configured by default so that e.g. radio messages are collected in the 'radio log' tab or certain mission briefing data, if provided, are presented via the mission tab etc.

Most of this is mentioned in the Quick Reference Manual that Open Kneeboard shows after the initial setup and start. Be sure to download and use the latest version (https://github.com/OpenKneeboard/OpenKneeboard/releases/tag/v1.2.4 ) as the functionality has been growing pretty good  over the time.

I would rate Open Kneeboard as one of few really essential tools especially for flying in VR.

 

Thanks for all the great info. Again I only will be using in VR so my main usage would be in VR. I will have a good look at all this and try to digest it over the next couple of days. I do like the fact it is still supported.

[Lt_Jaeger]

VRK https://discord.gg/aAuY7EJH was my favorite kneeboard in VR. It had some performance problems and v started to decay due to neglect. Then came Openkneeboard around and implemented OpenXR support and I was hooked, because VRK didn't. Just recently the VRK developer came back and announced VRK 2.0 in the works. In the meantime he made the  old version OpenXR compatible. 

 

So you basically got two choices. From the way things are handled I think I still prefer VRK, but OK did a extremely well job in listening to user requests as well as coming up with some great ideas. 

Which one it will be, I can't say yet, I need to wait for VRK 2.0, but if these two guys join forces (they started to work on problems together) , it might be the best thing since sliced bread. 

 

[dburne]

1 hour ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

VRK https://discord.gg/aAuY7EJH was my favorite kneeboard in VR. It had some performance problems and v started to decay due to neglect. Then came Openkneeboard around and implemented OpenXR support and I was hooked, because VRK didn't. Just recently the VRK developer came back and announced VRK 2.0 in the works. In the meantime he made the  old version OpenXR compatible. 

 

So you basically got two choices. From the way things are handled I think I still prefer VRK, but OK did a extremely well job in listening to user requests as well as coming up with some great ideas. 

Which one it will be, I can't say yet, I need to wait for VRK 2.0, but if these two guys join forces (they started to work on problems together) , it might be the best thing since sliced bread. 

 

 

Thanks much for your feedback!! Unfortunately I have a fairly busy day today and won't get to dig into it till later on in the afternoon but I certainly will and let ya know how I make out with it.

 

 

[dburne]

Lol I don't know if I am even going to be able to learn Open Kneeboard. Directions seem somewhat lacking, trying to join his Discord server is even convoluted, etc. 

Alls I want to be able to do is add a pdf document I have created, for instance Spit Cold Start, and have it display in the kneeboard so I can pull up in VR and go through start up checklist. This is my learning procedure for all aspects of new aircraft. For instance I have several pdf's for each section of the Hornet's weapons systems that I can insert any time into my kneeboard.  This is really all I want.

[edmuss]

From what I remember you simply open the pdf on the desktop OKB app and it then appears on the virtual kneeboad, it works really well with a tablet as mentioned above, I also use an inspiroy h610p and it's really nice with the inking support so you can add notes with the stylus; additionally the physical buttons on the tablet allow you to switch tabs and pages.  The kneeboard can be positioned to suit, made opaque and auto zooms when you look down at it.

I could be wrong with the above, it's been a while since I used the kneeboard but I'm sure I've had it working like that

[schmiefel]

I am not quite sure what's going on on your side with importing a PDF into OK?

Those are the steps I do to get a PDF into OK:

After launching OK desktop app select 'Settings'

Within 'Settings' select 'Tabs'

Then click on '+Add a Tab' and select 'Files (one per tab)' from the drop down menu

Within the file selection explorer move to your path with the relevant document and select the appropriate PDF

A new tab named like the previous selected document is now added to the menu on the left

and that can be moved within the tab settings via drag&drop with your mouse cursor

Now, leave the settings and go back to the main page and select the new added tab and it shows the content of the PDF in its window

With the navigation marks on the top right you can navigate through the pages

To use it withinh VR you have to add key binds or bidn certain controls maybe of your HOTAs or what else you use - even the Hotkeys of graphics tablets can be used for navigation

Finally: in this settings page you can manipulate the behaviour within VR

Edited January 3, 2023 by schmiefel
Typos fixed

[dburne]

9 minutes ago, edmuss said:

From what I remember you simply open the pdf on the desktop OKB app and it then appears on the virtual kneeboad, it works really well with a tablet as mentioned above, I also use an inspiroy h610p and it's really nice with the inking support so you can add notes with the stylus; additionally the physical buttons on the tablet allow you to switch tabs and pages.  The kneeboard can be positioned to suit, made opaque and auto zooms when you look down at it.

I could be wrong with the above, it's been a while since I used the kneeboard but I'm sure I've had it working like that

Thanks much as mentioned I will not be using a tablet. I will not be taking notes on my kneeboard.  All I want is to display in my VR headset so I can follow along the checklist as I learn things. Very simple yet seems so complex to achieve. I will try messing with it later on this afternoon when I return.

 

 

4 minutes ago, schmiefel said:

I am not quite sure what's going on on your side with importing a PDF into OK?

Those are the steps I do to get a PDF into OK:

After launching OK desktop app select 'Settings'

Within 'Settings' select 'Tabs'

Then click on '+Add a Tab' and select 'Files (one per tab)' from the drop down menu

Within the file selection explorer move to your path with the relevant document and select the appropriate PDF

A new tab named like the previous selected document is now added to the menu on the left

and that can be moved within the tab settings via drag&drop with your mouse cursor

Now, leace the settings and go back to the main page and select the new added tab and it shows the content of the PDF in its window

With the navigation marks on the top right you can navigate through the pages

To use it withinh VR you have to add key binds or bidn certain controls maybe of your HOTAs or what else you use - even the Hotkeys of graphics tablets can be used for navigation

Finally: in this settings paged you can manipulate the behaviour within VR

 

Wow thanks so much for all that great information, I really appreciate you going to all that trouble for me!! That should be a big help - going to be out a while but will certainly give this a shot upon my return later this afternoon - will let ya know how I make out on it. 

Thanks again that was awesome of you!

Edited January 3, 2023 by dburne

[schmiefel]

1 minute ago, dburne said:

Thanks much as mentioned I will not be using a tablet. I will not be taking notes on my kneeboard.

You won't have to use one. Just add certain keybinds or controls to let the virtual kneeboard show up in VR and to move in between the pages and tabs... that's all. Don't get what's not working on your side?

4 minutes ago, dburne said:

will let ya know how I make out on it. 

Hopefully you can sort it now as OK is just a great app within VR and something I would expect by ED themself for VR usage. They really should pay the dev for that and incorporate that app or at least its functionality.

[dburne]

7 hours ago, schmiefel said:

You won't have to use one. Just add certain keybinds or controls to let the virtual kneeboard show up in VR and to move in between the pages and tabs... that's all. Don't get what's not working on your side?

Hopefully you can sort it now as OK is just a great app within VR and something I would expect by ED themself for VR usage. They really should pay the dev for that and incorporate that app or at least its functionality.

 

Ok just got back from my appointment and going to dig into your excellent post - now I am hopeful! Will advise how I make out here in a bit.

 

[Baldrick33]

7 hours ago, dburne said:

Thanks much as mentioned I will not be using a tablet. I will not be taking notes on my kneeboard.  All I want is to display in my VR headset so I can follow along the checklist as I learn things. Very simple yet seems so complex to achieve. I will try messing with it later on this afternoon when I return.

I ended getting a cheap tablet. It probably isn't good value but unless Open Kneeboard gets the ability to navigate pdf bookmarks it does work well using the tablet to navigate the pdf menus in Chuck's Guides for example. Otherwise I have a button box with rotaries bound to moving between pages. 

The tablet is an extravagance - I convinced myself I might use it for more than simply navigating a pdf in Open Kneeboard but so far haven't (as we do  )

[dburne]

10 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

I ended getting a cheap tablet. It probably isn't good value but unless Open Kneeboard gets the ability to navigate pdf bookmarks it does work well using the tablet to navigate the pdf menus in Chuck's Guides for example. Otherwise I have a button box with rotaries bound to moving between pages. 

The tablet is an extravagance - I convinced myself I might use it for more than simply navigating a pdf in Open Kneeboard but so far haven't (as we do  )

 

And how do you easily use it whilst wearing a headset? How do you see what you want to see in the headset? Just  sounds too cumbersome to me. I do not want to be peering out of my VR headset breaking immersion. I want everything in the headset itself.

Edited January 3, 2023 by dburne

[Baldrick33]

2 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

And how do you easily use it whilst wearing a headset? How do you see what you want to see in the headset? Just  sounds too cumbersome to me. I do not want to be peering out of my VR headset breaking immersion. I want everything in the headset itself.

 

It works surprisingly easily just by feel. For trawling through Chuck's guides I am not using it in busy flying times. I just use it to get to the section I want and then use the button box (could easily be the HOTAS if preferred) for moving between pages. I literally use the tablet just to navigate the pdf sections, so it is probably way OTT!

The alternative would be to split up the PDFs and tab through it I suppose. Anyway I fancied getting a tablet for possible future messing around, it was pretty cheap.

[dburne]

7 hours ago, schmiefel said:

Hopefully you can sort it now as OK is just a great app within VR and something I would expect by ED themself for VR usage. They really should pay the dev for that and incorporate that app or at least its functionality.

 

Man oh man you are my hero!! Working beautifully for me now! That is all this old geezer needed , instructions with illustrations that were clear, consider and easily understoof. Got her working now. Now just go to resize a little larger so text is more readable. I think I can handle that one!

Thank you again for taking your time to do all that for me!!!

The author should consider reaching out to you to write a guide for him. For folks like me it is needed.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

It works surprisingly easily just by feel. For trawling through Chuck's guides I am not using it in busy flying times. I just use it to get to the section I want and then use the button box (could easily be the HOTAS if preferred) for moving between pages. I literally use the tablet just to navigate the pdf sections, so it is probably way OTT!

The alternative would be to split up the PDFs and tab through it I suppose. Anyway I fancied getting a tablet for possible future messing around, it was pretty cheap.

 

I just sent a 12 page pdf document ( Spit cold start) to VRK and it handled it quite easily in one pass. I thought it might be like Kneeboard Builder where it would have to split each page to it's own file, but it did not or it does it under the hood and I did not see it.

Edited January 3, 2023 by dburne

[dburne]

16 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

It works surprisingly easily just by feel. For trawling through Chuck's guides I am not using it in busy flying times. I just use it to get to the section I want and then use the button box (could easily be the HOTAS if preferred) for moving between pages. I literally use the tablet just to navigate the pdf sections, so it is probably way OTT!

The alternative would be to split up the PDFs and tab through it I suppose. Anyway I fancied getting a tablet for possible future messing around, it was pretty cheap.

 

I mean also how do you view it without peering out of your headset?

[Baldrick33]

19 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

I mean also how do you view it without peering out of your headset?

Just by feel. The tablet and pen are down by my side, I don't need to peer out of the headset just like using the HOTAS and button box.

 

[dburne]

Oh yeah baby now I be a cookin with grease!! Now I can get back to learning the cold start procedure. Thankfully it is much simpler than the Hornet which I have already learned, so this one should be a breeze for me.

Thanks again!

[schmiefel]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

I mean also how do you view it without peering out of your headset

Happy that I could help you

And in my experience I don't need to look at it. I attach the tablet via such a kneeboard holder mentioned above that I strap onto my leg and I have marked the writing area and the buttons on the tablet wth some self-adhesive velcro stripes and the tablet pen resides easyly to grasp in one of the pen holders at the side of the kneeboard holder. Getting used to blindly touch the hotkey buttons of the tablet was quite easy and then writing kind of blindly on the tablet didn't take not much time, too, as you see on the VR screen in real time where and what you write. That way you even can take notes in the imported PDF documents.

[dburne]

I have Vaicom Pro which is supposed to let one take notes as well however i have not delved that deep into the weeds with it yet. I believe it is via speaking the notes.

Edited January 3, 2023 by dburne