Why is DCS documentation so darned SPECTACULAR?

[DaveSD]

EDIT: I finally found where campaigns I build should go (in the "en" folder in the campaigns folder), but I found that information no thanks to the DCS manual. The save function for new campaigns just defaults to the campaigns folder but there's NO mention ANYWHERE in the documentation that specifies where campaign files need to be saved; one could easily assume the campaign file could be saved anywhere. That's a failure on ED's part, I hate to say.

Another major problem is not putting the manual in a prominent place on the website. Every DCS user would be referring to it,* unlike individual aircraft or module manuals, and so it shouldn't be mixed in with aircraft manuals. The drop-down documentation search menu doesn't even provide a way to search for the general DCS manual; it only lists aircraft manuals.

*Somehow I muddled through learning the basics of DCS without using the manual, since I couldn't find it until now.

It's presumptuous of me to say this, but I'm confident I could do a better job of creating a manual. If I had the time and energy I'd create an open-source version to be shared freely by DCS users. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to do that. I barely have enough time to use DCS as it is, and my Hornet dogfighting skills are a testament to that.

#########

Simple thing: I'm trying to build a two-mission campaign, just to try it out. I save the campaign and when I go to open it, it's not listed under My Campaigns or whatever it's called.

I was really hoping to solve this problem on my own by, you know, looking through the documentation. When I visited the Campaign Builder Tutorials section of this forum I found three entries - one telling us what that section was for, and two entries describing how to build missions, not campaigns. Now I'll be the first to admit that I didn't watch the two videos, but I think I had a good excuse - with one video being a little more than two hours long and the other being almost 4 1/2 hours long, I didn't want to take the gamble by watching them to see if there were any nuggets of information that could prove useful.

What ED needs for DCS is a GD FN manual.

Having fun shouldn't take this much work. I'm not talking about the steep learning curve for new aircraft, scripting, or any of that, but finding answers that should be readily available shouldn't be this difficult.

Edited January 20, 2023 by DaveSD
Additional ranting.

[Eugel]

Have you checked the User Manual in your DCS/doc folder ? 
From page 362-365 the campaign builder is explained.

[Dragon1-1]

I hate it how people seem to think videos are any good as documentation. Some people might learn from them better, but using them to quickly look stuff up? Forget it. Docs that come with DCS do work, but they can be outdated.

[Rudel_chw]

3 hours ago, DaveSD said:

Simple thing: I'm trying to build a two-mission campaign, just to try it out. I save the campaign and when I go to open it, it's not listed under My Campaigns or whatever it's called.

 

that’s indeed a simple thing .. and my campaigns are just there, on "my campaigns"

 

3 hours ago, DaveSD said:

I was really hoping to solve this problem on my own by, you know, looking through the documentation.

 

I learned about the Campaign  builder by reading its chapter on the DCS 2020 user manual.

 

3 hours ago, DaveSD said:

What ED needs for DCS is a GD FN manual.

DCS has a manual … I’m not an english speaking native, what GD FN means?

[Eugel]

19 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

DCS has a manual … I’m not an english speaking native, what GD FN means?

I interpreted it as abbreviations for certain cursewords that I won´t repeat here.

[DaveSD]

7 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

that’s indeed a simple thing .. and my campaigns are just there, on "my campaigns"

 

 

I learned about the Campaign  builder by reading its chapter on the DCS 2020 user manual.

 

DCS has a manual … I’m not an english speaking native, what GD FN means?

God d*** and the FN can be read phonetically, as effen'.

I finally found the DCS manual. Logically, it's in the Documentation section of the website. Illogically, it's on page two instead of the first page. Illogically, the search function only lets you search for aircraft manuals, and that led me to believe that section only had aircraft manuals.

I'm sure a lot of people will think I'm just a whiner, which is okay. However, I spent several years writing and illustrating manuals for complex IT equipment, and I made sure I created them with as little ambiguity as possible. I tried very hard to look at it from the end user's perspective, asking myself what might be confusing and what information that's required might be accidentally excluded from the manuals; too much information is better than not enough information. That was for IT professionals. DCS is a consumer entertainment product, and things should be set up for consumers for their entertainment, not to increase their workload. This isn't about the complexity of the product itself (although I see plenty of things in the Mission Editor that could be improved), after all, aircraft and military operations are complex, and realism is the driving force behind DCS. But the complex nature of the simulation needs to be balanced with clear, easy-to-find documentation. (And personally, I believe a lot of basic things that require LUA scripting should be handled within DCS itself.)

Do consumers use DCS for entertainment or as an unpaid part-time job?

7 hours ago, Eugel said:

I interpreted it as abbreviations for certain cursewords that I won´t repeat here.

Exactly.

8 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I hate it how people seem to think videos are any good as documentation. Some people might learn from them better, but using them to quickly look stuff up? Forget it. Docs that come with DCS do work, but they can be outdated.

I agree. For the most part I'm okay with videos handling some of the documentation, but that shouldn't be the bulk of it. And here's something to consider - people who are vision impaired wouldn't be using DCS, but hearing impaired people very well could be, and video tutorials leave them out.

I realize the folks at ED are working like crazy to make things great for us, and I appreciate it, but in that effort to give us massive reality in the simulations they seem to have left the documentation work in the dust.

[DaveSD]

10 hours ago, Eugel said:

Have you checked the User Manual in your DCS/doc folder ? 
From page 362-365 the campaign builder is explained.

I finally found the manual online, but not in a very logical spot. (See another reply here for details.) While having a manual in that folder is great, it's not necessarily an obvious place to look. Personally, I think the manual should be prominent in the support section of the website. That manual describes the core functionality of DCS, unlike the more specific aircraft manuals, etc., and since that manual would be used by all DCS users it should be easy, easy, easy to find.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, DaveSD said:

I'm sure a lot of people will think I'm just a whiner ...

 

Actually, I think that you belong to that type of user which is always right and any faults he suffers are someone else's blame  ... if instead of ranting, you had just asked on the Forum you would have found the manual very quickly.

[Ironhand]

1 hour ago, DaveSD said:

I finally found the DCS manual. Logically, it's in the Documentation section of the website. Illogically, it's on page two instead of the first page. Illogically, the search function only lets you search for aircraft manuals, and that led me to believe that section only had aircraft manuals.

I suppose you could have just used the one that gets installed with the sim in the sim’s Documents folder, though. That might have been easier.

…..

[Eugel]

1 hour ago, DaveSD said:

I finally found the manual online, but not in a very logical spot. (See another reply here for details.) While having a manual in that folder is great, it's not necessarily an obvious place to look. Personally, I think the manual should be prominent in the support section of the website. That manual describes the core functionality of DCS, unlike the more specific aircraft manuals, etc., and since that manual would be used by all DCS users it should be easy, easy, easy to find.

Well, where else would you put it ? 
"DCS/docs" is imho a very easy and logical spot.

Also, when I go to the online documentation of the website, the manual appears as the second entry on page 1:

[Rudel_chw]

59 minutes ago, Eugel said:

... Also, when I go to the online documentation of the website, the manual appears as the second entry on page 1:

 

That's only if you select a localization, if not it will appear on the second page.

 

@BIGNEWY  I noted that the DCS User Manual thumbnail that appears above, depict the old version of the manual, rather than the latest EN 2020 version, can you please alert the Webadmin so he can update the thumbnail?  Thanks

 

[Eugel]

Well then there´s another easy solution to find the manual.

But, judging on the choice of words in the opening thread, this isn´t really about finding help, but to let off some steam...

[DaveSD]

On 1/20/2023 at 11:09 AM, Ironhand said:

I suppose you could have just used the one that gets installed with the sim in the sim’s Documents folder, though. That might have been easier.

…..

And enlightens users to the fact that it resides there? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I generally don't look through the folders when I install software. I guess I should.

[Ironhand]

6 hours ago, DaveSD said:

And enlightens users to the fact that it resides there? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I generally don't look through the folders when I install software. I guess I should.

Ahhh…maybe it’s my age or, perhaps, I’m just an oddity but I’m always curious to see what documentation comes with the software I install. I may then, like any self respecting male, ignore it. But at least I know where to start looking should I succumb to the impulse to look for help.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Ironhand said:

perhaps, I’m just an oddity but I’m always curious to see what documentation comes with the software I install

 

I don't believe you are one .. Me too, I always check what I install, looking at a minimum for any readme file.

[CageyLobster]

49 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I don't believe you are one .. Me too, I always check what I install, looking at a minimum for any readme file.

The file structure for DCS is kind of a mess.  So many of the documentation files are located in multiple different locations within the DCS directory.  Some of the presented docs are not up to date either.  

I understand the question wasn't worded in a manner that was less confrontational, but the person also stated English was not the native language.  Also, I think you guys sometimes forget with how convoluted some things are in DCS how frustrating a new player can feel, especially when they don't have the resources that some of the older players have.  As someone who has those resources available to me to figure stuff out, it still is frustrating to look at DCS as a product and see how messy it can be.  It also doesn't take long to see that it's messy.

 

Since 20 years of military have taught me not to bring up a problem without a solution, here is mine.

Have a centrally located Docs folder within DCS that contains all associated documentation for every module, terrain, tech, and so on.  All the Aerodrome charts for the maps, the aircraft docs, the tech docs...all of it installs its documentation to a centrally located folder.  Inside DCS could be a hyperlink to documentation.  It could either link to your internal folder, or if a network connection is established open a link to the web page to see all current documentation.  (At no time should it be different.  That's messy) 

 

It's little housecleaning things that are cheap and easy fixes to making the experience for the consumer better.  That's what niche titles need to be doing.  Open the doors, don't shut them just because what works for you should work for me.  Make it better.

[Art-J]

I recall that coming to DCS in 2014 from CFS2, Il-2 '46 and CloD (having no previous experience with any Eagle Dynamics products whatsoever), It took me a while to realize there were various manuals located in the game folder. The concept of "docs" folders hidden inside individual aircraft folders might be logical for some of the Flanker/LOMAC/A-10C/Ka-50 veterans over here, but just didn't exist in previous sims I played (and I'm also the one who usually searches for readme files). It's not intuitive by any means and I'm not surprised that I can see the same pattern repeating now with DCS newcomers frequently asking on this forum about manuals.

If anything, the latest manual for DCS itself (with updated thumbnail, as Rudel pointed above) should ALWAYS be located on the very first link of "documentation" page, indpendently from localization, language or whatever. That's where new players will search for it first.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Art-J

[BuzzU]

I don't get this thread? Game manuals should always be in the game folder. That's right where it is for DCS. Right in the docs folder.

Edited January 25, 2023 by BuzzU

[CageyLobster]

1 hour ago, BuzzU said:

I don't get this thread? Game manuals should always be in the game folder. That's right where it is for DCS. Right in the docs folder.

 

If this were the case can you tell me where to find the Aerodrome charts for the Persian Gulf map released in 2018?

edit:  Within the file structure of DCSWorldOpenBeta

Edited January 26, 2023 by CageyLobster

[scoobie]

Personally I don't have a problem with sniffing around DCS directories and finding PDFs, but the manuals for specific modules (maps or aircraft) could be linked to in those "tiles" on the main DCS screen. Currently you can click a tile for a specific module, a small menu pops up and there you get: "INSTANT ACTION", "SET WALLPAPER" and... I think it's "BUY" (I don't have DCS here to check).
There could be another clickable item there: "MANUAL". IIRC there's suitable empty space in the lower right corner of that small pop-up menu.
Just an idea.

Of course some 3rd parties choose to deliver manuals in 2 or more files. I don't have a remedy for that.

[Pikey]

So this is a thread about not finding the manual that changed to why the products manual aren't in the same place as the purchased modules and eventually ending up in some casual moaning about how much they are advertised to the surface.

The part that irks me is when folks don't look and make the assumptions based on what they could see without looking first, then backtrack to find anything else to moan at to cover the fact they were in error and should not depart from that path with a simple "Ignore me, i found it, thanks for your help".

Having written manuals, and being a techical writer with access to the analytics that show who reads them, I know exactly where the problem is. So when people say that ED needs a good <expletive> manual, I disagree. With evidence.

[BuzzU]

12 hours ago, CageyLobster said:

If this were the case can you tell me where to find the Aerodrome charts for the Persian Gulf map released in 2018?

edit:  Within the file structure of DCSWorldOpenBeta

 

Are you talking about the kneeboards? Are they anywhere?

 

[Ironhand]

12 hours ago, CageyLobster said:

If this were the case can you tell me where to find the Aerodrome charts for the Persian Gulf map released in 2018?

edit:  Within the file structure of DCSWorldOpenBeta

 

I give up. Where are ED’s Persian Gulf charts located?

[CageyLobster]

4 hours ago, Pikey said:

So this is a thread about not finding the manual that changed to why the products manual aren't in the same place as the purchased modules and eventually ending up in some casual moaning about how much they are advertised to the surface.

The part that irks me is when folks don't look and make the assumptions based on what they could see without looking first, then backtrack to find anything else to moan at to cover the fact they were in error and should not depart from that path with a simple "Ignore me, i found it, thanks for your help".

Having written manuals, and being a techical writer with access to the analytics that show who reads them, I know exactly where the problem is. So when people say that ED needs a good <expletive> manual, I disagree. With evidence.

My problem is when the community gets short with people who are frustrated looking and come here to be ridiculed by the player base cause its convoluted.  Also having a good manual and training and things that a new player first encounter in a working order goes to huge lengths in improving the experience and its an easy and cheap fix to start with some organization of the file directory.  No one is asking for manual rewrites and them to be correct 100% of the time in a EA module.

I also spent a lot of time in the military training, writing training plans, writing documents, tech order rewrites, validation and a ton of money spent training me in process improvement for maintenance actions at the wing level.  Where does it say to go look for the f-16 manual within the mods folder.   

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\F-16C\Doc

This is where my f-16 module documents are located.  Do you think most people are going to dig that deep to look for a manual?  Also if I'm English speaker it would be awesome if I didnt have to download all files that are only of that language to minimize hard drive space.  It could be worked if they ever made changes to the file system maybe.

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Doc

When this folder exists higher up in the file structure?

While these are mostly DCSWorld documents it also has a charts folder

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Doc\Charts

This folder has Aerodrome charts for FC3. A10C, and a general one.  But, Aerodrome charts are kept here for Caucasus.

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\terrains\Caucasus\Kneeboard

 

I say all this as someone who knows where the files are NOW.  Who knows where to go. Who spent time finding out where stuff is.  I spent a significant amount of time first finding them, then having to remember.  Finally I just now have a 2nd hard drive with manuals and files.

Asking here and getting mod testers who think the problem is people are lazy and don't look is exactly the problem here. I don't don't get this community often.  Super hostile to new players and yet unwilling to make it better for them.  Nope, we are just gonna hog pile a new player for not knowing and asking a question in a manner we don't see fit, all the while refusing to see how things could be better.  Whatever, I know how to play this game.  I'm not here to make customers. 

Later gators

 

This isn't messy guys? 

[Ironhand]

4 minutes ago, CageyLobster said:

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\F-16C\Doc

This is where my f-16 module documents are located.  Do you think most people are going to dig that deep to look for a manual?  Also if I'm English speaker it would be awesome if I didnt have to download all files that are only of that language to minimize hard drive space.  It could be worked if they ever made changes to the file system maybe.

D:\Program Files (x86)\DCS World OpenBeta\Doc

And the ReadMe in that DOC folder reads in part:

Quote

III.DOCUMENTATION

Game manuals are supplied in PDF format and can be found in the “Doc” folder of the corresponding Mods directories.
For example, the Su-25T manual is placed into DCS World\Mods\aircraft\Su-25T\Doc folder.