How the AI should NOT fly (quite a few pics inside)

[tdar]

So I was flying in the campaign mode the other day. after a lengthy mission, I ordered my wingmen in a 4-ship flight to return to base. I fell back, watching as they went low above a town next to the airfield, as if they were celebrating the end of a successful mission. Suddenly, an explosion. My wingman 54 was down in a split second and his wreckage smacked into the ground right next to a building. I popped flares, assuming my wingmen came under SAM fire - I was surely next. A few seconds passed, then a minute. No further fire. Then suddenly, another small explosion where my two remaining wingmen were. And then a massive fireball. They were surely dead!

 

55 and 54 In close formation:

 

54 is going down:

 

eject!

 

whats this? and now 53 and 55 make contact! you can see 54's crashsite in the plume of smoke in the background. I am the small speck of black just below the lowest clouds.

 

 

 

 

looks like 55 is definitely dead. look at the mess on the cockpit windows!

 

err...boom!

 

I guess this is a good study on the damage model of DCS:BS, but what the hell was the AI thinking?! Aircraft #55 caused both mid-air collisions by chopping the tails off its two different formation leaders. I guess justice was served as the pilot of 55 was the only one to get killed!

Edited January 28, 2009 by tdar

[braden]

cheers buddy, that was wee-your-pants funny to watch.

 

i love my wingman hovering directly above me, whilst i'm ducking behind a hill and popping up to take out targets

[opformaster]

Its even better when they hover over you popping flares, with the PA announcing "hey you in the AAA gun! My flight leader is right below me!!"

 

-op4

 

Edit: Oh yeah the pics are great as well! I had a good chuckle!

[Sunjah]

 

 

... I guess justice was served as the pilot of 55 was the only one to get killed!

 

 

WOW!!! Very intense, and a very dramatic photographic illustration of the event! Well done!

 

Just out of curousity, did you tell them anything at all besides return to base? Maybe this is something in lines of a "bug" and needs to be reported.

 

Either that, or that #55 jerk was pretty pissed off at the other two for using up all the hot-water this morning!

Edited January 28, 2009 by Sunjah

[tdar]

no i believe it was a simple 'RTB' command. upon watching the .trk file it seems like 55 creeped up on the other helis very slowly, as if he 'misjudged' the very small speed difference between his and the other pilots aircraft. it was pretty hilarious though. good thing i didnt get a mission failed because of this, because this was my 3rd attempt at that mission and i was literally a minute away from landing at the base!

[fox_111]

AI wingmens are frustrating. Upon take off, I tell them to get the hell away from me with the open formation command. And when the battle begin and I fly all over the place to hide, they circle everywhere, sometime running direcly at me, in my LOS and LOF, if not bumping into me.

 

They rarely can hold a close formation, even when I'm not manuvering and flying in a straight line, steady.

 

I hope the first patch will sove this issue too.

 

Even on expert, AI are mostly useless. At best, they shoot the target I'm engaging and waist my ammo.

[opformaster]

Ive found if you have mastered the 5 D's of dodgeball you can loose your wing man en route to your area of operations. First find some power pylons, then Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge repeatedly under the power lines, and wait for the boom:music_whistling:.

 

-op4

[S3PukkU]

Perhaps #55 had a weird concept on how close a close formation should be.

 

Either that or he was a saboteur. :huh:

[morsmortis]

Chill man. Your wingie is just testing out his 'Taran' techniques.

Strange. I've flown 2 campaigns and countless instant action and single missions and I have never had the AI crash into me. Are you sure you're not flying with sudden movements and directional changes? The above screenshots look to me like you purposely tried to get the AI wingman to crash into you.

[Peyoteros]

Looks more like "How I should not fly" to me. Formations, formations formations...

[tdar]

Strange. I've flown 2 campaigns and countless instant action and single missions and I have never had the AI crash into me. Are you sure you're not flying with sudden movements and directional changes? The above screenshots look to me like you purposely tried to get the AI wingman to crash into you.

 

I wasnt involved in the crash, my heli was about 2 km behind the 3 AI helis that managed to kill each other!

[-Nighthawk-]

lol I've had a few cases like that before, a few times when my wingman call "rejoin" then flys from the left hits my tail and stays in the right, not acknowledging I'm even there. Worst is on the runway though, they have no patience :P

[skypirate]

Once I was killed like that (really annoying stuff).

And since then I'm considering a few tactical elements:

 

1.Always try to know where your wingman is (sometimes as in real life you'll have to move to allow him to pass).

2.When you expect that you'll be making sudden turns (e.g.near the target area) order the wingman to open formation and/or move to another formation position.

3. If his presence is really bothering you send him on overwatch... (or on a suicidal intrusion :) )

[lucasdigital]

oh yeah, had a spate of collisions last Sunday. Wingie was returning to formation as I made a sudden climb. Very nasty head-on collision. Sometimes you share the blame, other times the AI just wants a good kicking.

[Peyoteros]

Set correct formation, so your wingman is at the safe distance from you. Assign the task to your wingman so it's busy engaging enemy, not repositioning him self according to what you're doing... Bare in mind that the wingman is trying to keep formation, so it's your responsibility to avoid midair collisions too. Because heli have no sudden brakes you must be careful when doing dangerous manoeuvres. You shouldn’t put all in flight safety on your wingman alone, you must be cautious too. After all it’s only AI…

Edited January 29, 2009 by Peyoteros

[Svend_Dellepude]

I have never had any experience with wingmen crashing into each other.

I always use the combat spread formation and then order them to open.

moreover you can give them the hold order somewhere safe, while you sneak around and then call them in to attack those datalink targets that you gave them. this usualy works.

[CE_Mikemonster]

HAHAHAHAHA

 

Mine just turn into Combat Carrot, sprouting orange flares whilst closing with the enemy and using Vikhirs ar 2000m range and 250m alt.

 

I am about to practise making them stand-off though, i'll criticise their fighting skill when i've trained enough to be 100% confident in mine :)

[dsobbe]

Sure fire way to avoid a midair with your wingman.

1. Tell him to, Attack air defenses.

2. Wait for him to announce, Sam launch, 10 .........

3. Look for puff of smoke.

4. Resume what you were doing, knowing that the sky is a little safer. :-)

[Panzertard]

Generally the AI shouldnt fly like this. I've also flown a few houndred SP missions and never seen the issue.

So the thing is, why does it happen sometimes or for some of you?

 

I'd call it an "issue" - since it's not constant for all pilots and all missions. Hence, you may want to try to find a way to replicate the problem (unless it's constantly like that for you). If you can replicate the problem I'm quite sure that ED would like to know how to reproduce it - so they may be able to fix it and verify that it is gone. :)

 

In more technical lingo;

IMO I think the AI may be using some variables internally to keep track of their buddies, and trying to maintain a proper distance at given speeds / manouvers (ofc), as well as maybe weather factors.

DCS-AI may "cheat a few stick inputs" to save CPU cycles - and some of those algoritms may have some bugs - who knows.

 

Somehow in some situations - those tables / arrays may not longer contain the correct results - or one of the functions trying to assist the AI returns inccorrect data for them to stay separated.

Hence *bigbadaboom* ...

 

I'd assume it'll be hard to find the culprit for that bogus data - so a method to reproduce the problem would be nice to see ;)

Note: A TRK recording may be valuable for ED - but it wont record the factors from your computer that may cause the issue.

However - if the factors affect all computers, the track may contain enough data for others to verify the issue and find a method to reproduce it.

[sinelnic]

In line with Mr Panzertard's comment here, I'd propose the following thesis: When the AI understands that it is flying in formation, it keeps track of the immediate leader position. When it's told to RTB, it does not, because the algorithm assumes that he's flying a solo route, and thus there's absolutely no need to waste CPU cycles monitoring other aircraft's position until he gets into an approach pattern.

 

Expanding on this, when you order your wingman to depart the formation and attack a target or go recon, he separates from you following a script, and then forgets about your position, only looking for you again when he's asked to rejoin or decides to do so.

 

This can be easily tested...

[Guest LeonSmile]

How the AI should NOT fly quite a few pics inside

 

Never have and never will... knowing my luck the first time that I use it, some dodgy site will have spammed its way to the top of list and Ill end up somewhere I dont want to be at work

[Bulletstop]

I had a great one yesterday. I landed to re-arm refuel, and I was not in the proper position on the airfield, ie I came in and landed by the fuel trucks on the af apron, wingy returns to base and runs directly into me.

 

Yup my own dumb mistake for not telling him to hold position.

 

 

Bullet

 

I really need to use spell check more often :)

[Inseckt]

Never happened with me, allthough I rarely fly with more than one wingie...

 

Maybe it was modelled? Nr. 55 might have been going through a rough patch lately, and when he caught his wife in the sack with is best friend (Nr. 53), he snapped and whent on a psycko trip. :pilotfly:

 

Seriously: Awsome Pics, might just be desktop material....