DCS: AH-64D Flight Model discussion

[CHPL]

All are focused on multi-threading, while the APACHE flight model has significantly improved.

Since this is probably only of interest to helicopter enthusiasts, this has been completely lost in the update log with all the new electronic bells and whistles.
It was worth waiting for this video on the mobility of the AH-64 because the update now finally provides fun in the pilot's seat and changes a lot.
 

 

FOLLOW-UP

I don't know how official the claim is that there was no change in the flight model of the Apache. 

But if you compare video 2 before the update with video 3 after the update, you can see and hear the differences quite clearly. 

So can it be that it is only due to MT? 

Yes, it can be. Helicopters in DCS are, unfortunately, a battle of materials. 

The better and, unfortunately, therefore, more expensive your hardware, the easier it is to fly. 

This is also true for the processor. 

But it doesn't matter what the reason is. The Apache has significantly changed for me with the last update to the positive. 

But still not my 1st choice. 

[IR.Clutch]

5 часов назад, CHPL сказал:

this has been completely lost in the update log

Hey, tanks. Which of the latest updates are you referring to? I didn't see anything in the changelog about improvements of the flight model and why didn't you switch on the flight controls as commented on the youtube channel? This might be your subjective opinion, but in fact there was no change

Edited March 18, 2023 by IR.Clutch

[CHPL]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb IR.Clutch:

 This may be your subjective opinion, but in fact there was no change

 

The update from Friday. 

If you wotch the second Apache Video, made before the update you will see Tourque, TOT and Rotor RPM constantly changing. 

And the wimmen,like wimmen do, jelling all the time Low RPM, high RPM. 

This video is made after the update and this things hav changed a lot. 

So, after more the 30 Jeahrs of flying, my skills improved within less then 4 weeks so much, or ther is something different with the flight model. 

Ther is a smal chance that multi treating influences the flight model in a positive way. Especially helicopters in DCS depending a lot on PC performance. 

In any way. This would also be good to know an a good reason for upgrading your processor, if you after MT still have problems. 

[IR.Clutch]

 

20 минут назад, CHPL сказал:

flight mode

 

I can also advise one thing. Try adjusting both axes like this. Probably the trick is not even the curve itself, as such, but the first two or three first values (near the zero zone). Definitely a positive change was noted by my mates, not only on Apache, but also on Viper. The improvement was advised by another virpil. The AAR on the F-16 became a pleasure rather than a pain. The Apache also became much more controllable. I recommend it to everyone. 

For the F-16С the saturation should be left at 100%

Edited March 18, 2023 by IR.Clutch

[tusler]

With my system I also noticed a difference. I5-9600, RTX 2060 Super, 32 gig ram, and a SSD. When I use the HT the AH-64 responds much sooner to stick input than it did before. There use to be a slight lag that I did not perceive as I learned to fly it I just compensated. Now there is no more lag that I notice anyway.

[iFoxRomeo]

The SAS got improved a few patches ago. The collective SAS channel was a big contributing factor for the torque dancing. Other than that there is no improvement in the flight model. It still feels like.... ah nevermind.

[CHPL]

FOLLOW-UP

I don't know how official the claim is that there was no change in the flight model of the Apache. 

But if you compare video 2 before the update with video 3 after the update, you can see and hear the differences quite clearly. 

So can it be that it is only due to MT? 

Yes, it can be. Helicopters in DCS are, unfortunately, a battle of materials. 

The better and, unfortunately, therefore, more expensive your hardware, the easier it is to fly. 

This is also true for the processor. 

But it doesn't matter what the reason is. The Apache has significantly changed for me with the last update to the positive. 

But still not my 1st choice. 

 

 

[CHPL]

 

[Mad Dog 762]

Mine is flying much better too, and its not due to MT, because every time I try to fly in MT it crashes on the mission load screen.  

[Raptor9]

No changes have been made to the AH-64D flight model.

[simo-dj]

11 ore fa, Raptor9 ha scritto:

No changes have been made to the AH-64D flight model.

This mean that i am becoming a quite better pilot than before! Ha!

Hover i'm no longer afraid by you!

[CHPL]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Raptor9:

No changes have been made to the AH-64D flight model.

Thanks for pointing that out, I was waiting for that.
However, this is strange, because the differences are very, very clear. 
But maybe it's just the faith in myself that moves mountains. 
 

[hreich]

I also noticed but before MT patch, that i could stable hover like a pro...like it got easier...Maybe just me fyling by muscle memory...

[CervO]

It is obvious that with more FPS you can better control the helicopter. More FPS, more control.

Especially if you were going below 30fps before MT

So for sure indireclty MT "improves" your flying xp by increasing FPS

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by CervO

[bradmick]

I genuinely think people believe flight model changes have happened because they’ve actually gotten better at flying it. I think people had this idea that the Apache was going to be like the Ka-50 and basically fly itself. Well, the Apache is not that and it doesn’t. You have to actively fly it. It takes on average 300 to 400 hours of actually flying the helicopter to get really comfortable with it, or at least to be comfortable enough to be in charge of it. It’s a very demanding aircraft, it requires an enormous amount of skill to fly. Pardon my bluntness, but I think a lot of internet pilots thought they’d master it in no time, because of their legendary video game sky god abilities. Reality is a cruel mistress. So when people make absolute claims about a flight model change in the absence of any factual evidence, it makes me laugh. The reality is you’ve probably just gotten better from hours of practice.

Edited March 23, 2023 by bradmick

[stonewall197922]

11 минут назад, bradmick сказал:

I genuinely think people believe flight model changes have happened because they’ve actually gotten better at flying it. I think people had this idea that the Apache was going to be like the Ka-50 and basically fly itself. Well, the Apache is not that and it doesn’t. You have to actively fly it. It takes on average 300 to 400 hours of actually flying the helicopter to get really comfortable with it, or at least to be comfortable enough to be in charge of it. It’s a very demanding aircraft, it requires an enormous amount of skill to fly. Pardon my bluntness, but I think a lot of internet pilots thought they’d master it in no time, because of their legendary video game sky hod abilities. Reality is a cruel mistress. So when people make absolute claims about a flight model change in the absence of any factual evidence, it makes me laugh. The reality is you’ve probably just gotten better from hours of practice.

If i take me for example, i see no flight model changes. But main point is experience  you gain by training. With more training you get better undestanding of controls and better feeling of the craft itself (the way it reacts to inputs  and e.t.c). My last big revelation was, that i used att hold not correctly, with alot of mistakes in rudder and stick. AH-64 is realy much more easier then Ka-50, when you at least undrestand what you are doing.

Edited March 23, 2023 by stonewall197922

[CHPL]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb stonewall197922:

My last big revelation was, that i used att hold not correctly, with alot of mistakes in rudder and stick. AH-64 is realy much more easier then Ka-50, when you at least undrestand what you are doing.

 

I take that as a general statement.  And you are absolutely right about it.

For me, as a real-life pilot with additional thousands of hours in DCS, getting better at piloting from- these maneuvers are impossible to still hard but flyable - within 3 or 4 hours of actual flight time?  Hard to believe. 
 

To clarify, I'm talking about changes at speeds of less than 30 knots. Beyond that, the APACHE flies so stably and on its own that you wouldn't notice any difference between a steam hammer or a laser tool as a control.   
On the other hand, in 6 or 7 years of DCS, I have gained quite a bit of experience with how much the feeling of flight and control, especially over the helicopter, is affected by hardware.

Of course, I can't completely rule out the possibility that I've just gotten better and more awesome.  

[admiki]

7 hours ago, bradmick said:

I genuinely think people believe flight model changes have happened because they’ve actually gotten better at flying it. I think people had this idea that the Apache was going to be like the Ka-50 and basically fly itself. Well, the Apache is not that and it doesn’t. You have to actively fly it. It takes on average 300 to 400 hours of actually flying the helicopter to get really comfortable with it, or at least to be comfortable enough to be in charge of it. It’s a very demanding aircraft, it requires an enormous amount of skill to fly. Pardon my bluntness, but I think a lot of internet pilots thought they’d master it in no time, because of their legendary video game sky god abilities. Reality is a cruel mistress. So when people make absolute claims about a flight model change in the absence of any factual evidence, it makes me laugh. The reality is you’ve probably just gotten better from hours of practice.

 

While I agree with you on how much time it takes to actually be proficient, nothing was done to FM/AP when holding modes got broken (where you could not activate it unless you were trimmed out). Maybe there was no intentional work done on FM, but considering how messed up DCS code is, there is no telling if doing something else affects FM.

[Raptor9]

12 minutes ago, admiki said:

nothing was done to FM/AP when holding modes got broken (where you could not activate it unless you were trimmed out). Maybe there was no intentional work done on FM, but considering how messed up DCS code is, there is no telling if doing something else affects FM.

On the contrary, there were quite a few tweaks performed to the hold modes in the December patch which resulted in that bug to which you are referring. There were several items in that changelog that even mentioned it.

[CHPL]

Am I stupid?

Don't worry,

I know who asks such questions and also gets corresponding answers.

But all joking aside. Since the update to MT, the APACHE has been much more manageable for me.

It's still far from perfect, but maybe I expect things that the Apache simply can't and never will be able to do. It is, after all, a weapons platform for an environment in which air superiority prevails. Who needs agility there? ED has taken its time with a comment on the topic, but now clarified: The flight model has not been changed. But positive contributions are positive contributions, and what is more favorable than happy customers, even if there's nothing you have done about it.

So the question is? Am I stupid and just imagining it? Do other improvements in the source code have a positive effect on the APACHE, or have I just become so much better?

Do others have the same experience? Yes! A handful confirms my observation, but the large rest remain silent.

So all you APACHE pilots out there, what is your experience? Among all who give a "serious" comment to this video on YouTube, we raffle 3 cups from our Pilot Shop with a motif of your choice.

CONDITIONS OF PARTICIPATION:

Participation is open to all:

DCS players with a DCS or Steam account who post a serious comment on the topic on YouTube about the video by April 1, 2023.

In case of winning, who can provide a shipping address that the Pilot Shop will deliver. (Delivery is worldwide with a few exceptions).

An alternative winner will be determined if there is no response to a possible win notification within four weeks.

 

Let's get started. I'm looking forward to your experience, and don't forget to like the video, subscribe to the channel, and last but not least, visit us on DISCORD. https://pilot-shop.myspreadshop.de/ https://pilot-shop.myspreadshop.com/

 

 

 

[Raptor9]

Just to prevent any misunderstanding as to the reason for my comments about what has or has not changed in DCS AH-64D, my intent was to keep everyone informed as to the nature of the development; what has occurred in the last several updates, and what has not occurred. My intent was not to directly refute anyone's experiences, but to keep everyone apprised of the steps that have been taken in the development process. I try to be as forthcoming as I can be regarding these things so that the community remains informed and aware of what is happening.

[Leg2ion]

2 hours ago, CHPL said:

So all you APACHE pilots out there, what is your experience?

Personally agree with you. I dip in and out - A10 being my main vehicle of choice - but certainly after the last few updates I do believe the flight model is more manageable/stable. I think I have a fairly good understanding of rotary wing, having maintained them for around 40 years, and have a modest amount of stick time on various helo types.

When the module came out it felt like I was trying to balance a marble on a needle - slightest lapse in concentration and things went badly wrong - fast. Now I am quite content to let the aircraft do its own thing and settle into stability. Gone are the days of yawing down the runway, putting in some left/right boot and ending up in a fiery mess...

[Floyd1212]

I fly the Apache exclusively, and I haven't personally noticed any changes in the way she flies after the big MT patch, or the two smaller follow-up patches since then.

Not a totally reliable way to test, but you could play back a track from before the March patch and see if the helo does something very different from when the track was recorded.  I remember going back to play an old track after the big adjustments were made to the tail rotor system and the aircraft was spinning out of control and crashing right after take-off.

[CHPL]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Raptor9:

Just to prevent any misunderstanding as to the reason for my comments about what has or has not changed in DCS AH-64D, my intent was to keep everyone informed as to the nature of the development; what has occurred in the last several updates, and what has not occurred. My intent was not to directly refute anyone's experiences, but to keep everyone apprised of the steps that have been taken in the development process. I try to be as forthcoming as I can be regarding these things so that the community remains informed and aware of what is happening.

Thanks for your info and don't worry.
That was just a rhetorical question.  
However, with experience and a lot of practice, one becomes very sensitive to the control and recation of various modules.
However, the change in the APACHE was so substantial for me that an improvement of the flight model was out of the question.
Of course, it is even more interesting to find out what the reason for this change is if it does not concern the flight model.
I see this as a fundamental question not only concerning the APACHE. In our online squadron, many have made the experience that hardware is extremely noticeable, especially below 30 knots, but not only.
This is essential information for all those who have difficulties with takeoff, landing, hover, or other maneuvers and use, let's say, low-cost hardware. 

[Trigger]

Agree with Floyd1212. I also fly the Apache since its release mostly, and in the meantime didn't mess any more with the axes (all just neutral). To me, it's just a matter of patience and training. Couldn't find any difference since the last major update months ago. Only my personal learning curve is slowly but constantly rising.